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I feel the power of that moment is severely undercut by the fact that he's addressing the leaders of other countries, when he's obviously talking about America.

Lets call it like it is: They chickened out.

He is addressing the leaders of the GRC, who may or may not have more power than the leaders of nations, and he is talking about a global refugee crisis, something parts of the real world have been dealing with too. In the MCU, these are refugees of all races and ethnicities and religions because of the return Blip, not just a single one. The race and bias stuff dealt with by the show are totally different from what the GRC is doing and I did not think his big speech was directly about that.
 

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Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
I feel the power of that moment is severely undercut by the fact that he's addressing the leaders of other countries, when he's obviously talking about America.

Lets call it like it is: They chickened out.
What? Did we watch the same show?

The Flag-Smashers were a global movement based out of Europe. The governments of the entire world, under the umbrella of the GRC (a UN analog) were meeting to decide to displace refugees . . . all over the world.

The Marvel movies are made (mostly) by Americans for an American audience . . . but our problems with how we treat displaced people with fairness and compassion is a GLOBAL issue today, right now, in the real world.
 

The Marvel movies are made (mostly) by Americans for an American audience . . . but our problems with how we treat displaced people with fairness and compassion is a GLOBAL issue today, right now, in the real world.

Of course. But lets not ignore that the show is making its statement in a post Trump world. If any country has treated immigrants poorly the last few years, it is the USA. So to have Captain America lecture their analogue for the UN is kinda rich. It literally made me scoff at the screen.
 


Of course. But lets not ignore that the show is making its statement in a post Trump world. If any country has treated immigrants poorly the last few years, it is the USA. So to have Captain America lecture their analogue for the UN is kinda rich. It literally made me scoff at the screen.
It's very American-centric to think that America is the only country that has treated immigrants very poorly over the last couple of years. At least the refugees don't often drown trying to cross the US boarder.
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
Of course. But lets not ignore that the show is making its statement in a post Trump world. If any country has treated immigrants poorly the last few years, it is the USA. So to have Captain America lecture their analogue for the UN is kinda rich. It literally made me scoff at the screen.
It is far from being only an American problem. Here in Europe it is huge. There are people drowning in the Mediterranean Sea while governments bounce responsibilities.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Not only to punch Nazis but to explain to us WHY it is important to punch Nazis. Without that, it's just violence. With it, he reminds us why we need to stand up.

Yes, but as a point of rhetoric, adding that would not have been as... punchy a line. :p
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's very American-centric to think that America is the only country that has treated immigrants very poorly over the last couple of years. At least the refugees don't often drown trying to cross the US boarder.
Yes, but Captian America was arguing with an American Senator about it. That's what made it seem like the writers were talking about America. Not once did Captain America turn to address any leaders of other countries with his speech, and not one leader from another country stepped forward to give excuses. If they wanted it to be addressing world issues, they should have had various world leaders engage him.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Yes, but Captian America was arguing with an American Senator about it. That's what made it seem like the writers were talking about America. Not once did Captain America turn to address any leaders of other countries with his speech, and not one leader from another country stepped forward to give excuses. If they wanted it to be addressing world issues, they should have had various world leaders engage him.

So, as usual, things are not that simple. It is reasonable for an American citizen to lecture an American official on ethics. It is rather less appropriate for Americans to be lecturing others on right and wrong. While I agree that the message is quite applicable to the world at large, Sam focused that message on the appropriate recipient.

It isn't like the other officials present didn't hear it, and hadn't just themselves been victims of their own poor policy choices. In that scene, they did, in fact, give us reaction shots of one or two other officials.
 

It isn't as if the way refugees are treated around the world isn't rooted in racism...

It is much a skin-tone thing as anything else. Lighter-skin Caucasians treat darker-skin Caucasians poorly. Lighter-skin Black people treat darker-skin Black people poorly. And I am sure there is a version of this in Asian countries too. This is where Ethnic hatred, rather than Racism, comes into play, and I think that was there subtly, with a lot of the show being set in Eastern Europe. But in the MCU, every single country is dealing with the refugee, or displaced people, problem, because of the sudden return of over 3 million people, and not just specific real-world countries.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So, as usual, things are not that simple. It is reasonable for an American citizen to lecture an American official on ethics. It is rather less appropriate for Americans to be lecturing others on right and wrong. While I agree that the message is quite applicable to the world at large, Sam focused that message on the appropriate recipient.

It isn't like the other officials present didn't hear it, and hadn't just themselves been victims of their own poor policy choices. In that scene, they did, in fact, give us reaction shots of one or two other officials.
When Putin annexed Crimea, it was the right thing to do for other countries to speak out against what he did. It wasn't in any way inappropriate and we shouldn't have waited for someone from Russia to step up and do it.

As you say, Captain America falls on the morally correct side of things, and that includes speaking out against injustices done by other countries and their leadership. This is especially true if those multiple countries have come together as a joint body, the way they did in the show.
 



Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
It is much a skin-tone thing as anything else. Lighter-skin Caucasians treat darker-skin Caucasians poorly. Lighter-skin Black people treat darker-skin Black people poorly. And I am sure there is a version of this in Asian countries too. This is where Ethnic hatred, rather than Racism, comes into play, and I think that was there subtly, with a lot of the show being set in Eastern Europe. But in the MCU, every single country is dealing with the refugee, or displaced people, problem, because of the sudden return of over 3 million people, and not just specific real-world countries.
Ethnic hatred, discrimination by skin color, racism . . . . it's all the same thing. Parsing these things out as if they are different is odd.

In the MCU, the entire world is dealing with a refugee crisis . . . . kinda. They don't get too into the details, but it mirrors the real-world migration problems we face, with folks trying to escape poverty, war, oppression, and environmental disasters in developing countries and immigrating (or trying to) to the developed countries of Europe, the US, Australia, and others. It's just that in the MCU, all of a sudden the developing countries had space and actually wanted people to immigrate . . . until the blipped folks returned, that is.

There's a reason why most of the Flag-Smasher action took place in Europe.
 

MarkB

Legend
Yes, but Captian America was arguing with an American Senator about it. That's what made it seem like the writers were talking about America. Not once did Captain America turn to address any leaders of other countries with his speech, and not one leader from another country stepped forward to give excuses. If they wanted it to be addressing world issues, they should have had various world leaders engage him.
That's not entirely accurate. He was addressing three members of the GRC, including the American senator, and he maintained eye contact with each of them in turn throughout that speech. The American senator was the most vocal, but he wasn't the only one to speak.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yes, but Captian America was arguing with an American Senator about it. That's what made it seem like the writers were talking about America. Not once did Captain America turn to address any leaders of other countries with his speech, and not one leader from another country stepped forward to give excuses. If they wanted it to be addressing world issues, they should have had various world leaders engage him.
This is simply false, if you rewatch the scene. The senator isn't even the one that sparks the speech from Sam, it's the lady saying that the "terrorists" only managed to slow them down, and Sam gets in her face nearly as much as he does the senator's.
 


A tweak suggested by YouTuber Nando v Movies sounded like an improvement for me, and I'm adding a few more tweaks:

1. The series starts with no Flag Smashers, just Karli Morgenthau, a former criminal associate of the Power Broker who stole doses of super soldier serum, took one for herself, and snuck back to Europe to try to help people she knew who are now refugees. The first episode ends with her robbing a bank, and getting filmed hurling a security guard fifteen feet, so that he smashes into a flagpole, which shatters, dropping a flag into a fire. She sees people recording her, and says this money is for refugees, and that the world should have no borders. This catches the public's attention because she's a Robin Hood figure, and gets Sam's attention because she's maybe a super soldier.

2. In episode two she gets more allies as people flock to her cause, and they try to hijack some vaccines in transit, and one of her allies is recording the heist, intending to release it later for propaganda and recruitment. They're actually thwarted in getting the vaccines, and some of her new allies get captured by John Walker, but Karli and the rest escape, and the video shows her kicking butt, and shows Cap and company trying to keep vaccines out of the hands of those who need them. At the end of the episode, after Sam and Bucky go meet Isaiah Bradley, we see Karli give doses of the super soldier serum to some of the members of her team.

3. Ep three opens with the newly super-soldiered flag smashers breaking into a jail to rescue their teammates who were arrested, and one of them kills a guard. Karli admonishes him, saying that they're not killers. Again, all of this is streamed and shared online. The evidence that there are now multiple super soldiers makes this urgent, and drives Bucky and Sam to get Zemo released to help them find the source. The rest of the episode is basically the same.

4. Ep four is very similar, including the scene with Karli and Sam talking, only to have Walker ruin everything. The big change in this ep is that in the climax, the same reckless super-soldier flag smasher who killed someone last episode kills Lamar . . . and this time the person John Walker kills is Karli, again, all filmed and shared online.

5. Small change to ep five. The leaderless flag smashers are thus driven to be more radical and violent, and in the end the Power Broker sends Batroc to recruit them for a terror attack on the GRC. Sharon tips off the authorities, saying she intercepted the Power Broker's message to Batroc. (This, we'll discover later, was to help her get back into a useful position in the CIA. If some violence leads to more instability and demand for the weapons she sells, all the better.)

6. If you want to be really on the nose, you have the Flag Smashers kidnap the GRC, load them on helicopters, and fly them to Liberty Island, to execute them in front of the inscription of the Emma Lazarus poem, the New Colossus. As usual, they're recording, only once they have the hostages, they start livestreaming. Sam can fight Batroc, and Bucky deals with other super soldiers (with John Walker not getting any sort of moment of redemption; he just doesn't show up except in the epilogue). Then when the choppers fly, Sam can do the same trick where he kicks a guy out and then has a hostage take over flying; but one of the choppers makes it to Liberty Island.

And that's when Sam lands and talks the situation through, winning by deescalating the situation. Some other helicopters are around, with tactical teams - and with Bucky, with a rifle, ready to kill the flag smashers but hoping he doesn't have to. And Sam gets them to trust him by speaking to the politicians, explaining that millions of people agreed with Karli, and that the GRC's plan is just going to radicalize more people, but that they could instead use their power to help these people. Then with that trust he persuades the flag smashers to surrender.
 


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