Falcon and winter solider

[Sacrosanct]

They've been selling toys of a Sam in a capt america outfit complete with shield and red wings, so...

 

[Blue]

I'm not sure we ever see Steve get into a situation where he would be personally angered. He's always a bit distant — he has comrades in arms, but I think pretty much no true friends (other than Bucky). He was clearly attracted to Peggy before being put on ice, but their relationship never got anywhere, and I don't think we ever saw him in a situation where she was seriously harmed or even threatened. I think everyone other than those two are basically on a buddy/co-worker basis with Steve.

The relationship between John and Lamar seemed a lot closer than the one between Steve and anyone else. Those two had been through some serious stuff together, building far stronger bonds. I'm not saying Steve would have reacted with rage toward someone similarly close being harmed, but we've never seen him tested like that.

I'm the opposite - I think we've seen exactly this at the end of Civil War when Stark would not stand down, would not listen to reason, and was attempting to kill his best friend whom he also had been trying to save when no one else believed in him. Stark knew Bucky was controlled, knew it wouldn't help, and was doing it for vengeance. At the end, it was deadly earnest.

And F&WS specifically evoked that with the two handed cleaving attack with the Shield on a prone foe. We have a clear mirror, but Cap controlled the anger and struck to incapacitate in a way that explicitly wouldn't kill, while Walker did the opposite.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yea, no way they're wings, it's gotta be a vibranium super-suit like Black Panther's.

Both, unless they're making an enormous departure from the comics for no real reason.

Maybe the Wakandan gear will include wings, but they’re telegraphing Sam taking up the Captain America mantle so hard...

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Blue]

Yeah, how come no one is being more understanding of Walker when it's obvious he's grieving...?

Wonderful callback to the WandaVision discussion. To treat it seriously, Walker was completely aware of what he was doing while Wanda wasn't aware she was hurting people and tried to stop it as soon as she did.

If I'm so zoned out from grief of the murder of my beloved and I shouldn't be driving, and if I hit a bus it's many crimes on me. If I'm so rage-filled from the grief of the murder of my close friend that I intentionally ram their motorcycle with my can and kill them, it one but very big crime I've commited.

 

[Blue]

More on Zemo, and the idea that the Avengers killed his family.
If I drive a car normally, at the speed limit, in normal conditions, it having undergone normal upkeep, and a defective axle or other part causes the front right wheel to fly off and hit someone, killing them, it is absurd to claim that I am responsible for that death. Tony and Bruce built an AI to run a defensive system to help defend against a second alien invasion. Had it not gone pretty damn randomly haywire, it would have helped immensely with Thanos. There was no reasonable expectation for them to know that an AI based on Jarvis would come out a psychotic murder-bot.

Hold a second, I'm somewhat with you on the other points, but not this one. It explicitly wasn't based on Jarvis, it was based on the unknown networking/code/conciousness they found in an alien weapon. That they rushed to do in a short period of time without telling others because by their own admission the others would think it was too dangerous.

That's a far cry from "we're basing something on Jarvis".

 

[Dire Bare]

I'll throw this in spoilers since its shortly afterward for Episode 5.

Spoiler

I continue to like Zemo, just when you think he's going to zig, he zags. I like that he is not rushing off to be a mustache twirling villain that I think many are expecting.

This episode probably has the most heart of the show so far. While some of Falcon's hesitancy to take the shield was noted before, I think it was really crystalized in this episode. I like how ultimately the answer to Isaiah's treatment for Falcon is not anger, nor sadness....its determination. He takes the shield to continue the fight, so that Isaiah, and all the men like him, are not lost to history. That is Steve Rogers reborn, and that's why he has the shield. While Bucky has the body of Captain America, Falcon carries the heart.

It also highlights for me that this show really could have had a few more episodes. Its just finally getting good, we are getting into some bigger stuff with Falcon, and there is still some much to dissect with Bucky (I like that Bucky just apologies to Falcon about the Black man holding the shield, as he just straight up admits that neither he nor Steve thought about that and how it would feel when they hatched the plan....no excuses, just straight up and honest).

I also like that while Walker is clearly not mentally stable now on the serum, but you can still respect and appreciate what he's going through. While not the same as Isaiah by any stretch, you can see the same "washing our hands of this man"....a man who has served his country with honor for many years, because he is no longer convenient.

Yeah just a lot of stuff I liked in this episode.

Walker crossed a line (and continues to) and it's right that there should be consequences, but . . . . it is heartbreaking to see the U.S. military just abandon him like that. His line of, "You made me, I did what you asked, I did it well" (or words to that effect) was spot on.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm guessing Bucky specified the colourscheme for Sam's replacement suit as red-white-and-blue. I'm not sure whether it will have wings (or flight capability without wings) or not - Sam leaving his broken wings behind seemed like a pretty symbolic move along his path to embracing the Captain America role.

I didn't know Torres becomes the new Falcon in the comics. Cool. There's no guarantee that'll happen in the MCU, but they certainly left the door open.

I don't follow the comics very closely, but there's plenty of art depicting Sam as Captain Falcon America . . . . wearing a Cap inspired outfit, wielding the shield, AND with wings! That's my guess as to what we'll see next week.

 

[Dire Bare]

I think it's fair not to include that info in these threads. I purposefully don't check in until I've seen the episode, but if people are going to include info from the comics that spoils the show, I'm just gonna check out.

I think you're going to have a hard time finding a thread on a comic book TV show or movie where we don't talk about the source material.

The MCU movies and TV shows have taken strong inspiration from the comics . . . the characters, the visuals, and the storylines. But most often remixes them so that these new stories, while inspired by the comics, aren't the same as the comics. Torres becomes the Falcon in the comics, that MIGHT happen in the MCU, might not. It certainly won't happen in the exact same way, if it even does happen. Zemo certainly got a different treatment than his 4-color counterpart. Morgenthau is almost a completely different character than the Flag-Smasher of the comics. Walker is walking (heh) some of the same beats his inspiration does, but the MCU version is much more grounded and fleshed out.

Talking about what happens in the comics can give context to the TV show (or movie), but it doesn't spoil what's going to happen in the next episode or movie.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hold a second, I'm somewhat with you on the other points, but not this one. It explicitly wasn't based on Jarvis, it was based on the unknown networking/code/conciousness they found in an alien weapon. That they rushed to do in a short period of time without telling others because by their own admission the others would think it was too dangerous.

That's a far cry from "we're basing something on Jarvis".

Well, not quite, it was the basic setup was a clone of Jarvis, and they were using alien tech to go beyond what Tony knew how to do. Definitely rushed, but like...there wasn’t any reason to expect it to go full skynet, and even it getting itself up and running like it did was out of left field.

Yes they could have been more careful, but I don’t think it’s at all comparable to something like speeding down a residential in a heavy vehicle, where if someone dies as a result it’s 100% your fault and you’ve just committed murder. It’s an accident that just kept getting worse faster than they could get a handle on it.

Ultron is a fully sapient being, also. Ultron killed those people.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

1) Torres being given the wings. I think this is just a seed, in case they want to go there in future shows. I doubt it will lead to anything in this series. And ergo is not a spoiler.

2) Sam's new Captain America suit will obviously have wings. That's his combat style and special skill. It also makes it clear he isn't just an ersatz Steve Rogers. Will it have a new Redwing? Is the important question.

3) Obviously Sam will become Captain America. That's what the show is about, just like Iron Man was about Tony Stark becoming Iron Man. The story of the show is what does it mean to be Captain America?, not who should be Captain America?.

4) Zemo letting himself be captured somewhat redeems the worst scene in episode 4. Bucky let him get away because he trusted him, and was right to trust him.