Falcon and winter solider

[tomBitonti]

Youre Right.

If you're the owner of the car, no one would reasonably hold you responsible.

But if you're the manufacturer? YES, You would absolutely be held responsible.

And Tony, SPECIFICALLY knew that he was taking a big risk in incorporating what he found in at Strucker's base into his Iron Legion Protocol to create Ultron.

Banner: So youre going for artificial intelligence and you dont want to tell the team?

Stark: Right. That's Right. You know why? Because we dont have time for a city hall debate.
I dont want to hear the "man was not meant to meddle" medley.

Tony was doing what he was doing for the right reason but he knew it was risky and problematic which is why he didnt want to tell everyone else.

Wasn’t Tony manipulated by Wanda? His fears were amplified and he was given a strong push. A claim can be made that he wasn’t entirely of a right mind when he made Ultron.
TomB

 

[Umbran]

No, that wouldn’t be rational.

Well, we disagree on that.

A scientist created a monster that required the Avengers as a whole to defeat.
If Tony wasn’t an Avenger, he still would have all the tools needed to make Ultron

No. If he wasn't an Avenger, he wouldn't have ad access to the Mind Stone. And he applied it without sufficient understanding, protections, oversight, or control.

This happens due to Stark's poorly managed anxieties, which bring him to seek control and power over his environment - it is a strong example of Zemo's point that people seeking power are a problem, I'm sorry to say.

Not allowing people driven by fear seek power... is pretty darned rational. Sorry.

 

[Umbran]

Wasn’t Tony manipulated by Wanda? His fears were amplified and he was given a strong push. A claim can be made that he wasn’t entirely of a right mind when he made Ultron.
TomB

Okay. We can chew that over.

What are the implications of this? Even if we lift some of the ethical responsibility off Stark, personally, we have... Johann Schmidt seeks power, gets Super-soldier serum, creates Hydra. HYDRA activates a super-powered individual (Wanda), who then makes another super-powered person (Stark) seek power, building another super-powered being (Ultron) and that brings great harm.

What in that says that Zemo is wrong? The root is still "people seeking super-powers should not be allowed to have them".

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No. If he wasn't an Avenger, he wouldn't have ad access to the Mind Stone. And he applied it without sufficient understanding, protections, oversight, or control.

Sure, not like any...non-superhero scientists...ever had access to it...waaait.

This happens due to Stark's poorly managed anxieties, which bring him to seek control and power over his environment - it is a strong example of Zemo's point that people seeking power are a problem, I'm sorry to say.

No, it isn’t.

Not allowing people driven by fear seek power... is pretty darned rational. Sorry.

It’s impossible, is what it is. No one has any control over what emotional states drive people to strive toward really any goal. This is also moving the goalposts from Zemo’s position in the MCU.

 

[tomBitonti]

Okay. We can chew that over.

What are the implications of this? Even if we lift some of the ethical responsibility off Stark, personally, we have... Johann Schmidt seeks power, gets Super-soldier serum, creates Hydra. HYDRA activates a super-powered individual (Wanda), who then makes another super-powered person (Stark) seek power, building another super-powered being (Ultron) and that brings great harm.

What in that says that Zemo is wrong? The root is still "people seeking super-powers should not be allowed to have them".

I think Zeno he has incomplete information, and is correct working from that incomplete information. I expect that almost no-one knows Wanda’s involvement. But, his focus on super soldiers seems overstated. Zemo was anti-Avengers, with super soldiers being just one example of what he is against.
Thanks!
TomB

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Wasn’t Tony manipulated by Wanda? His fears were amplified and he was given a strong push. A claim can be made that he wasn’t entirely of a right mind when he made Ultron.
TomB

You can argue that she amplified his fear, which pushed him to take the actions that he took. But at what point can you claim that he was a puppet and what point can you claim he's responsible for his actions? I'll give you the fact that he was already suffering from PTSD from the Battle of NY and that Wanda's Vision of his dead friends and an Earth being invaded probably lit a fire under him in a way that wasn't there before.

But making the decision NOT to inform his teammates what he was about to do? THAT was all Tony's own hubris.

 

[BRayne]

Tony also was already planning on creating Ultron, he had just hit a wall on what AI he could make were capable of and the mind stone was the first opportunity to break through that.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I think Zeno he has incomplete information, and is correct working from that incomplete information. I expect that almost no-one knows Wanda’s involvement. But, his focus on super soldiers seems overstated. Zemo was anti-Avengers, with super soldiers being just one example of what he is against.
Thanks!
TomB

Your first and second sentences are spot on.

But while he was anti-Avengers in CIVIL WAR, tool he used to extract his vengeance were in fact Super-Soldiers (Bucky and Steve).

He framed one in order to draw him out to get intelligence about the others AND what really happened to Tony's parents. After uncovering the location of the other Super Soldiers from Bucky he went there but made CERTAIN to leave enough breadcrumbs behind so that he'd be followed there.

And he got the best possible outcome because three of the people who followed him there were exactly the people he needed to be there to inflict maximum damage.

But honestly at that point it wouldn't have mattered WHO showed up. Even If it was Thunderbolt Ross who would have showed up with a bunch of JSOC guys? They would have found a bunch of dead super soldiers and the tape of Bucky murdering Tony's parents. Which Ross would have surely made sure Tony saw. Tony puts two and two together goes after Steve AND Bucky.

No, it's safe to say while Zemo doesn't like the idea of super soldiers so far they've been his most effective tool to achieving his goals, hence his fixation on them.

 

[Umbran]

I think Zeno he has incomplete information, and is correct working from that incomplete information. I expect that almost no-one knows Wanda’s involvement. But, his focus on super soldiers seems overstated. Zemo was anti-Avengers, with super soldiers being just one example of what he is against.

Yes, well, super soldiers are a thing he can get a handle on. They are a part of (what he sees as) the problem he can conceivably deal with. And, as noted, if he can use them as weapons against each other, all the better.

 

[Rune]

On a slightly different topic, we’ve got two episodes left to find out if Zemo goes after Isaiah Bradley. He was definitely listening while Sam and Bucky talked about him on the jet.

Also, if Old Cap is still alive and Zemo finds out, he’ll probably want to finish him off, too. Zemo on the loose is bad news.