Falcon and winter solider

[Umbran]

I mean that’s fair but on the other hand, at best he is ignoring all the other threats out there. The Avengers are, as of Civil War, the only people on Earth who could have stopped the alien invasion.

Yeah. But, why did that invasion happen? Because Loki... wants power. So, again, Zemo is not wrong.

So, I seem to be arguing for Zemo. The thing is that, in a major way, he is right - all he is really arguing is that power corrupts, and if that isn't a strict truism, it is true enough of the time in our normal daily lives to cause great misery to humankind. So, finding a flaw in his argument in that regard is going to fail.

The flaws in his position are rather practical.

1) Power happens. In the MCU, human (and non-human) technology and understanding have power as natural byproducts. Unless he forces Earth back into the Stone Age, it is something that has to be managed, because it cannot be eradicated.

2) Power exists. Asgardians. Titans. Skrull. Kree. Eternals. Inhumans. The MCU galaxy/universe is filled with people who are naturally more powerful than humans. Unless he wants humans to be eternally victims of those others, humans have to harness power - and that means letting people have it.

These facts make his desire to eradicate supers quixotic and unwise. Superpowers and their application need to be managed, just like everything else in human existence.

 

[Umbran]

Wanda's visions are accurate. Steve goes back to the past. Asgard is destroyed. The Avengers are destroyed and the shield smashed. The creation of Ultron is an entirely rational defence against the threat of Thanos, and would have been effective had it not been for a random glitch.

There was no random glitch. That Ultron came out like he did was implicit in the initial programming underlying the project. Stark's motives, unfortunately, are flawed. They were flawed before Wanda gets to him.

Steve Rogers makes this clear - "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, someone dies. Every time."

Wanda helps ensure when it happens, but is not herself the root cause.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah. But, why did that invasion happen? Because Loki... wants power. So, again, Zemo is not wrong.

So, I seem to be arguing for Zemo. The thing is that, in a major way, he is right - all he is really arguing is that power corrupts, and if that isn't a strict truism, it is true enough of the time in our normal daily lives to cause great misery to humankind. So, finding a flaw in his argument in that regard is going to fail.

The flaws in his position are rather practical.

1) Power happens. In the MCU, human (and non-human) technology and understanding have power as natural byproducts. Unless he forces Earth back into the Stone Age, it is something that has to be managed, because it cannot be eradicated.

2) Power exists. Asgardians. Titans. Skrull. Kree. Eternals. Inhumans. The MCU galaxy/universe is filled with people who are naturally more powerful than humans. Unless he wants humans to be eternally victims of those others, humans have to harness power - and that means letting people have it.

These facts make his desire to eradicate supers quixotic and unwise. Superpowers and their application need to be managed, just like everything else in human existence.

Right. Like I said, he is ignoring all the threats that exists regardless of supers. And the invasion would have happened eventually regardless of Loki, and Loki himself is a prince god thing.

My argument is that it is simply irrational to actively try to get rid of superheroes in a world where most of the things they fight are not from a source they or anyone else on Earth could have prevented. Understandable for Zemo, who lost his entire nation due to the scientific recklessness of a modern day Frankenstein who then remained an Avenger, but it’s still irrational.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There was no random glitch. That Ultron came out like he did was implicit in the initial programming underlying the project. Stark's motives, unfortunately, are flawed. They were flawed before Wanda gets to him.

Steve Rogers makes this clear - "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, someone dies. Every time."

Wanda helps ensure when it happens, but is not herself the root cause.

Well, not quite. That Ultron would be dangerous was intentional. Jarvis is dangerous. Vision is dangerous. Ultron obviously wasn’t supposed to be psychotic, that part is very much a bad luck plot device. Maybe one that a more careful Tony would have avoided, but maybe not. We will never know.

 

[MarkB]

Well, not quite. That Ultron would be dangerous was intentional. Jarvis is dangerous. Vision is dangerous. Ultron obviously wasn’t supposed to be psychotic, that part is very much a bad luck plot device. Maybe one that a more careful Tony would have avoided, but maybe not. We will never know.

What Tony programmed Ultron for was world peace. And Ultron looked at the data, and quickly realised that world peace wasn't obtainable so long as human nature was a factor. Plus he took on board Tony's self-loathing, which in him manifested as a loathing of the Avengers.

Unforeseen consequences of Tony's flawed programming. But not accidental, not just bad luck.

 

[hopeless]

And I assumed that AI came about because of the mind stone and that instability came about because of the mind stone.
Though given originally Ultron was the result of Hank Pym's own personal instabilities rather than Tony's.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What Tony programmed Ultron for was world peace. And Ultron looked at the data, and quickly realised that world peace wasn't obtainable so long as human nature was a factor. Plus he took on board Tony's self-loathing, which in him manifested as a loathing of the Avengers.

Unforeseen consequences of Tony's flawed programming. But not accidental, not just bad luck.

I strongly disagree. It’s either a very edgelord plot device decision by the writers, or a programming glitch in the mixing of elements that make up Ultron’s psyche.

Also IIRC the mindstone activating the completion of Ultron wasn’t really a foreseeable or intentional occurrence.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And I assumed that AI came about because of the mind stone and that instability came about because of the mind stone.

The mind stone is not inherently evil or unstable. Vision's soul comes from the mind stone and he was neither.

 

[Umbran]

What Tony programmed Ultron for was world peace.

Tony made one of the classic blunders - like getting into a land war in Asia, and going in against a Sicilian when death is on the line: assuming that peace comes through superior firepower.

 

[billd91]

The mind stone is not inherently evil or unstable. Vision's soul comes from the mind stone and he was neither.

He’s also the Jarvis personality. The fact that Tony made Jarvis (presumably) means he has the capacity to make a good AI. But Jarvis was made at a time when Tony wasn‘t suffering from the PTSD he developed and paranoia about being invaded from space. Nor was Jarvis made with the grandiose scope he planned for Ultron. Ultron is a massive project Tony was no longer in a frame of mind to complete safely or successfully.