Falling off the 4ed bandwagon

[BryonD]

The game moved toward the power system to avoid spamming things that could be used in abusive ways they were not intended to be used for. Like the old flour-in-the-eyes example; once that works once some players insist on their character carrying around bags of flour to throw at their enemies. Rather than the DM having to contort to counter that in some contrived way, it can be included in the power system. (The rogue has a sand-in-the-eyes power IIRC).

It's one way to help the DM deal with such situations.

I'd prefer the game move towards modeling the fantasy interaction I like and stop assuming the DM needs so much help in everything. If you play in a game in which players are likely to start caring around bags of flour (and since you brought it up as an example, I assume you see this as a problem worthy of systemic resolution) then there is only so much that can be achieved.

I'm more interested in a game that gives the DM credit for not needing help and being able to work with good players.

It is way cool that there is a game for flour wielding players and help needing DMs. But it isn't my thing.

 

[Mort]

Still possible with 3E skill rules. Not like 4E improved on the skill system.

I prefer magic systems that aren't completely focused on combat. 4E is almost completely focused on combat magic.

This is only true if you completely ignore rituals (checking the DDI there are 268 now and the number is constantly growing). Many of the utility spells in prior edditions are rituals in 4e - and I think the system is better for it because there is no longer what I would call the "six second solution" to every problem. And while the wizard does not have exclusive access to rituals he has the easiest time getting them and gets many for free.

On the "six second solution" I guess got pretty sick and tired of the mage had such an advantage over most classes:
- locked door - the rogue can try to pick it and may succeed and takes a few rounds (will automatically fail if wizard locked though) or the mage can just Knock it which takes less than one round and is guaranteed.
- Open courtyard - the rogue can hide and try to sneak past, or the wizard can cast invisibility.

- large cliff? the party faces an arduous climb - except that by any level worth mentioning flying spells and or magic is ubiquitous.

Etc.

4e has knock too - but it takes 10 minutes and involves an arcana check. Which means the rogue with good thievery actually has a reason to use it. Same with the other magic solutions, they're there but not always the obvious (usually default) choice.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'd prefer the game move towards modeling the fantasy interaction I like and stop assuming the DM needs so much help in everything.

That's fine, but not all games have to move in that direction. If older version of D&D have the direction you like, that's great, but not all editions necessarily have to play the same way.

If you play in a game in which players are likely to start caring around bags of flour (and since you brought it up as an example, I assume you see this as a problem worthy of systemic resolution) then there is only so much that can be achieved.

No, I don't need a systematic solution for that, it's just an example off the top of my head that I've seen both in old Dragon forum letters and on messageboards. In my own games, a quick word with the player would be enough. But that doesn't work for everyone.

I'm more interested in a game that gives the DM credit for not needing help and being able to work with good players.

Not all DMs are blessed with good players. Those DMs deserve some help, I'd say.

 

[ExploderWizard]

On the "six second solution" I guess got pretty sick and tired of the mage had such an advantage over most classes:
- locked door - the rogue can try to pick it and may succeed and takes a few rounds (will automatically fail if wizard locked though) or the mage can just Knock it which takes less than one round and is guaranteed.
- Open courtyard - the rogue can hide and try to sneak past, or the wizard can cast invisibility.

- large cliff? the party faces an arduous climb - except that by any level worth mentioning flying spells and or magic is ubiquitous.

Etc.

4e has knock too - but it takes 10 minutes and involves an arcana check. Which means the rogue with good thievery actually has a reason to use it. Same with the other magic solutions, they're there but not always the obvious (usually default) choice.

Keep in mind that in editions prior to 3E these "six second solutions" took resources that were not as exactly as plentiful/available as they were in 3E. Choosing to prepare a knock, or invisibility spell carries more weight when there isn't a local Wands n Scrolls R -US franchise on every corner.

 

[MrMyth]

I know it's cliche by this point, but... page 42 is what fills in the gaps, for me. Rituals handle things out-of-combat, but for creative spell use in combat, page 42 is my starting point on how to resolve it. If someone wants to use Ray of Frost to freeze the pool of water their enemy is standing it, I might require an Arcana check in addition to the attack roll, and success might let the attack immobilize the enemy instead of slowing them. I've seen character's use Ghost Sound to draw away the enemies attention and gain combat advantage, things like that.

I know that some might not feel this is the same thing - it relies on the DM deciding how things works, and while the guidelines help with that, they are only a starting point. And it may ultimately feel arbitrary compared to coming up with the creative uses that one knows are going to work within the rules. But... it is still a solid way to resolve creative ideas in combat, and typically results in creative actions that help the combat but don't instantly end it.

In many ways, I find that more enjoyable than finding some obscure loophole between two powers that vaporizes an enemy on the spot.

In terms of just using non-blasty powers in creative ways to control the battlefield (as in the example of using Windwall, Teleport, Invisibility)... yeah, I think people are vastly underestimating utility powers. Controlling the battlefield is what the wizard does, and stunning or blasting groups of enemies isn't his only option. One can totally set things up to break up enemies with cleverly placed walls, leave decoys to draw enemies to the wrong places, turn allies invisible, set up arcane gates to teleport them to where they can do the most good. Walls, illusions, teleports - these all still exist, and a good wizard can completely alter the course of battle without ever blasting enemies with a fireball.

Finally, in terms of certain 'plots' being out of the question, such as "teleport into the heart of the enemy stronghold, rescue the princess, book it back to safety"... if the DM is interested in such a plot, they can easily make it happen. They can come up with a ritual or set up NPCs that can allow the party to make their teleport rescue.

If the DM isn't interested, then they can't - as opposed to the DM having the party cleverly use teleport to bypass his entire adventure. Or thus having to come up in advance with anti-teleport magic to prevent this. And then having the party come up with anti-anti-teleport magic to let them go ahead anyway. And back and forth, and so on, and...

Yeah, I know that some enjoy that level of competition between the players and DM, and figuring out exactly the right tool to ensure they have the upper hand. It could be a lot of fun. But it could also be downright poisonous, and I can understand why they wanted to get away from that style of gaming. As it is, the same exact plots are available if they are the game the players want to play, and the DM wants to run.

It's easy to look at 4E and feel like there aren't those opportunities there anymore. Before, the DM could set things out like a puzzle - "the princess is locked in a tower, how will you get in to rescue her?"

And the party could climb the walls, or break in through the front door and fight their way up to the top, or fly in on a magic carpet and break her out through the roof, or teleport in, or sneak past the guards invisibly, or pop in through the astral plane, or summon allies to break the princess out, or try to trick the guards into moving the princess and then rescue her along the way... or any number of other things I can't think of.

But... you can still do most of those in 4E. Maybe not at level one, but by paragon, most of those seem viable - you can climb walls, you can get flying mounts or items, you have teleportations that will let you breach the walls, you can sneak, you can use invisibility, you can distract or deceive the guards, etc. There are rituals that could help, there are utility powers that could be used for polymorphing, filling the halls with fog, or any number of other things. You probably wouldn't be running things in combat rounds (if not actually fighting), and might instead be using a skill challenge as part of this, or could use a blend of skill challenge and combat (as the party sneaks around, and occasionally needs to ambush some guard minions before they can raise the alarm.) There are any number of approaches you could take - just like before.

There might be some previous options you don't have now. There might be some new ones you didn't have then. Odds are good that regardless of what your options are, it will be a significant undertaking - in some ways, I prefer that to "I cast Teleport. We grab the Princess. I cast Quickened Teleport."

Anyway. Skills, stunts, rituals, utility powers. That really does open up a lot of options in the system. Yes, it can be easy to fall into the trap of never looking past the character sheet. But the options are there for those who want to use them.

 

[Chainsaw]

Keep in mind that in editions prior to 3E these "six second solutions" took resources that were not as exactly as plentiful/available as they were in 3E. Choosing to prepare a knock, or invisibility spell carries more weight when there isn't a local Wands n Scrolls R -US franchise on every corner.

And, needless to say, every edition's resource management system works better when there are consequences for constant camping/resting (i.e., attempting to circumvent the resource allotment).

 

[Mort]

Keep in mind that in editions prior to 3E these "six second solutions" took resources that were not as exactly as plentiful/available as they were in 3E. Choosing to prepare a knock, or invisibility spell carries more weight when there isn't a local Wands n Scrolls R -US franchise on every corner.

That's absolutely right. I should not have generalized to "prior editions" when, in fact, 3e was the edition that made scrolls etc. so easy to generate and therefore truly showed the problem.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

In my own games, a quick word with the player would be enough. But that doesn't work for everyone. Not all DMs are blessed with good players. Those DMs deserve some help, I'd say.

I want to make sure I understand you.

Let's say you've got a player who wants to throw flour in the eyes of his opponents all the time, and he insists on carrying around bags of flour.

Your solution is to have a quick word with the player.

But you also see the value in a ruleset that codifies the ability to throw flour into the eyes as something you can only do once per encounter. That way, for DMs who deserve some help, they don't have to have a word with the player, it's right there in black and white.

And can I further infer that you consider this a forward evolution of the game?

 

[BryonD]

That's fine, but not all games have to move in that direction. If older version of D&D have the direction you like, that's great, but not all editions necessarily have to play the same way.

Of course not. But if a game in question presumes the DM needs help, it is going to include concessions that likely don't appeal to a DM that doesn't need help. Whereas a game that presumes the DM doesn't need help, won't be constrained to trying to help the DM.

No, I don't need a systematic solution for that, it's just an example off the top of my head that I've seen both in old Dragon forum letters and on messageboards. In my own games, a quick word with the player would be enough. But that doesn't work for everyone.

Can you offer an example that DOES apply to you?

Not all DMs are blessed with good players. Those DMs deserve some help, I'd say.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with having a game for those that need help. Just don't try to tell me that a game that assumes you need help is no different than a game that assumes you don't.

 

[Mark]

Any roleplaying game I ever run allows a player to have his character carry around as many bags of flour as he sees fit to carry. No quick word required. More sophisticated creatures think of it as breading.


Just wanted to be on the record.