Falling off the 4ed bandwagon

[BryonD]

I know it's cliche by this point, but... page 42 is what fills in the gaps, for me.

And that's cool.

But for me the idea that one page of rules is going to solve the problems is the opposite of a solution. One size does not fit all. In any and every game I run page ZERO fills the gaps. And it even jumps ahead and replaces areas that are not gaps but simply things I believe need changing.

The idea of the GM making the call is the sacred cornerstone of good gaming.
And I can sit down with a group of friends and have them describe characters and start grinding away in a very fun 100% ad hoc game.

But I still like published RPGs because consistent rules that cover situations in an appropriate and satisfying, consistent manner is value added.

I always have and always will make calls in any game. The need to make calls does not detract from the value of the game. But that is a constant. When judging a games merits, it should be set aside and the actual game mechanics assessed for what they actually do.

And when I do need to make rulings, please don't try to give me a single page to cover the contingencies.

 

[Nikosandros]

Keep in mind that in editions prior to 3E these "six second solutions" took resources that were not as exactly as plentiful/available as they were in 3E. Choosing to prepare a knock, or invisibility spell carries more weight when there isn't a local Wands n Scrolls R -US franchise on every corner.

Exactly so. Many of the issues with 3e that we are debating here, stem from the ease on which various kinds of magical items are assumed to be available* and the fact that many restrictions on spell casters that existed in AD&D have been lifted.

*Let's not also forget that in AD&D there is no such thing as a wand of cure light wounds... there are several kind of wands, but you can't just put any low level spell in one.

 

[N0Man]

IMO, the main problem with rituals is that they take at least 5 minutes (typically longer) to perform. They cannot be done in the heat of action and thusly have greatly reduced interest, utility, and versatility.

For instance, were the casting time a single round, even the possibilities for the rituals you listed are greatly increased. IMO, much of the creative utility of magic commonly found in pre-4e editions of D&D has been removed and replaced by tactical utility.

You're right, they would vastly increase the utility, versatility, and *power* of ritual casters. What some consider "creative spell casting", some consider cheesing or breaking an encounter. It's obviously an intentional choice to make many effects less broken and take spells that they believed *should* be utility spells and take them out of combat.

It's true that a party will no longer be able to run from a monster, shut the door and arcane lock it and suddenly be safe, though it can still help make camping in a dungeon safer.

It's true that you can no longer use rope trick to just jump out of countless sticky situations and lay low until things cool down, however it still can be used to get a much needed rest or even to hide out to ambush targets later.

It's true you can no longer cheese a combat with a caster by silencing them right off the bat.

The vast majority of Rituals that one would *want* to use in combat are those that really do break or cheese an encounter. It often has the result of the caster overshadowing the skills and abilities of the other classes.

It can also be more of a pain for the DM who has to take into account ways that his challenges can be circumvented, ways to prevent that, and ways the players will circumvent his ways of preventing it, etc.

However, most rituals still can be useful in the right situation, and many of them can be used to prepare for a combat and offer some advantage.

Let's also not forget the advantage of not having to memorize rituals. In 3E, if you needed one of these abilities as part of your plan, and if you didn't have a bunch of utility spells prepared on scrolls already, you often had to stop, camp for the night, and prepare new spells for your plan to work.

Rituals may take more time to cast, but you have every ritual you know and have ingredients for at your fingertips ready to *begin* casting at any time, without taking a full rest. I think that's and underrated feature.

Also, it allows players to broaden their character concept and allow nontraditional character classes to dabble in some magic without actually multi-classing in order to fit their character's theme.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a very legitimate design with some good reasons behind it, that at least some people do agree with.

 

[N0Man]

And that's cool.

But for me the idea that one page of rules is going to solve the problems is the opposite of a solution. One size does not fit all. In any and every game I run page ZERO fills the gaps. And it even jumps ahead and replaces areas that are not gaps but simply things I believe need changing.

The idea of the GM making the call is the sacred cornerstone of good gaming.
And I can sit down with a group of friends and have them describe characters and start grinding away in a very fun 100% ad hoc game.

But I still like published RPGs because consistent rules that cover situations in an appropriate and satisfying, consistent manner is value added.

I always have and always will make calls in any game. The need to make calls does not detract from the value of the game. But that is a constant. When judging a games merits, it should be set aside and the actual game mechanics assessed for what they actually do.

And when I do need to make rulings, please don't try to give me a single page to cover the contingencies.

I'm going to have to disagree. I think P. 42 is a work of beauty, because it gives some very easy to understand principles on how to break down an action for what it really is and how to interpret that into a resolution. I think giving a DM good insight to allow them to resolve countless actions pretty easily based on principals that can be easily remembered and utilized is a great way to go.

I think this is a much more elegant solution than trying to create a subsystem for every single possible action a player might perform and hope you covered all of them.

As someone new to DM'ing, that page made me feel more confidant about being able to resolve unusual actions as well as freed me of the burden of having to understand tons of subsystems that I would need to reference every time an unfamiliar situation came up.

 

[BryonD]

As someone new to DM'ing...

Thats fine because this is a completely different point.
If you want to call it a good teaching aid for new DMs I'll offer no arguement.

But I'm not speaking as or for new DMs. Teaching is well and good, but let's also take full advantage of no longer needing to be taught.

And as a tangent, the claim of "a subsystem for every single possible action a player might perform" is a total red herring.

Aside from liking pg 42 for new DMs, do you really disagree with the rest of my statement?
Do think that one size fits all is a good policy?
Do you think GM calls is not a critical cornerstone?
Do you think that the merits of a set of mechanics should be based more on one DMs ad hoc rulings moreso than the entirety of the system itself?

 

[fuzzlewump]

Those of us who don't play 3E as a button pushing game see a difference.

What do you mean? What does button pushing game mean exactly? And, if you could, include rituals in your description of how 4E is necessarily "button pushing" and how 3E is not necessarily "button pushing."

 

[BryonD]

What do you mean? What does button pushing game mean exactly? And, if you could, include rituals in your description of how 4E is necessarily "button pushing" and how 3E is not necessarily "button pushing."

What I mean is:

Then I did that every encounter. Over and over.

You will need to explain to me how rituals in 4E caused you to play 3E this way in order for me to possibly offer any insight into the relevance.

 

[fuzzlewump]

For instance, were the casting time a single round, even the possibilities for the rituals you listed are greatly increased. IMO, much of the creative utility of magic commonly found in pre-4e editions of D&D has been removed and replaced by tactical utility.

joe b.

What's the difference between creative utility and tactical utility in combat? As creative as I felt when I first cast 'zone of silence' and 'invisibility sphere,' I just punched the rogue who'd been training in stealth and move silently hilariously in the face, and I spread it around to the whole party. But that's a different problem...and a problem worth mentioning.

On another note, has anyone played in a 3E game with no casters who doesn't like 4E?

In my game, rituals take 1 minute to cast. They really aren't meant to be used in combat, and 10 rounds is sitting out of combat just as much as 10 minutes.

 

[fuzzlewump]

You will need to explain to me how rituals in 4E caused you to play 3E this way in order for me to possibly offer any insight into the relevance.

What? I played 3E before 4E. I 'button-pressed' because it was the best choice most of the time. Solid Fog is an amazing spell, huge controlling opportunity, probably the best a beguiler had at that level (Level 8? Level 4 spell.) But not every spell was used in combat, for instance the zone of silence and invisibility sphere I mentioned in a post a few minutes ago. I mean in order to say 4E is a button pressing game and 3E is not, you should include criticism of the ritual system.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Keep in mind that in editions prior to 3E these "six second solutions" took resources that were not as exactly as plentiful/available as they were in 3E. Choosing to prepare a knock, or invisibility spell carries more weight when there isn't a local Wands n Scrolls R -US franchise on every corner.

This assumes that the 3e DM had a Wands 'n' Scrolls R Us - by no means was that universal.

Typically, in my own games, the ratio is typically 70% found magic items, 20% party made items, 10% purchased - with a waiting period on purchased items, since there typically wasn't a convenient pile of scrolls waiting....

The Auld Grump