Familars, Leveling, and Feats

[Lucius Foxhound]

I know this has been discussed to death... but I was always in the camp that Familiars do NOT gain feats or skill points as you level.

However, my DM is insistant that Familiars are magical beasts, and as such all have Darkvision and Low-Light Vision (which makes my Owl familiar more pointless than a 2E Toad).

But reading the MM and SRD, it definitely seems to imply that Familiars gain feats and skill points as they gain HD. Since a familiars HD=caster's level, is this right?

From the SRD:

Magical Beast: Magical beasts are similar to beasts but have supernatural or extraordinary abilities. Unless noted otherwise, magical beasts have darkvision with a range of 60 feet and low-light vision.

Hit Die: d10
Attack Bonus: Total HD (as fighter)
Good Saving Throws: Fortitude and Reflex
Skill Points: +1 per extra HD
Feats: +1 per 4 extra HD

 

[Kraedin]

I'm almost certain that familiars do not gain skill points.

Skills:Use the normal skills for an animal of that type or the master's, whichever is better.

Player's Handbook, page 51.

Hit Dice: treat as the master's character level (for effects related to hit dice). Use the familiar's normal total if it is higher.

To me, it sounds as those the creature's hit dice total does not actually increase, but is only treated as being higher for effects related to hit dice, such as sleep or blasphemey.

Also, we are to use the "basic statistics for a creature of its type", which is followed by a list of changes. The type of creature a familiar is is not on that list, so I would infer that it does not change. (I.e., it stays an animal.)

 

[IceBear]

Well, as the familars don't get EVERYTHING on that list for magical beasts (1d10 hitpoints for the HD, BAB, Saves, etc) then it makes me question that line of logic.

Edit: I'd even go so far as to say that a familar doesn't get Darkvision either. To me they are a normal animal that has a special magical bond to the mage and thus they are possibly more magical beast than animal, but I think the spirit of the rules (especially since they point out an owl has low-light vision - though all animals do according to the MM) is that they don't get Darkvision.

BTW - the rules say all animals have low-light vision unless specified (which makes owls less useful). Is there any animal that they actually specify doesn't have low-light?

IceBear

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

Well, as the familars don't get EVERYTHING on that list for magical beasts (1d10 hitpoints for the HD, BAB, Saves, etc) then it makes me question that line of logic.
IceBear

I agree... but then why is everyone so sure they get Darkvision?

 

[IceBear]

See my edit

IceBear

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

BTW - the rules say all animals have low-light vision unless specified (which makes owls less useful). Is there any animal that they actually specify doesn't have low-light?

Bats. They have a maximum sight range of 10'.

 

[IceBear]

So, other than bats all animals have low-light vision. Wow...makes owls suck

Anyway, I think in my games I won't allow familars to have darkvision or gain feats and skills as I don't think it was intended.

IceBear

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

You know my feeling on house rules, IceBear...

It's funny, though. There's tons of questions on Familiars in the FAQ, but nothing about leveling or darkvision at all.

 

[Artoomis]

They don't advance. Period.

That's really, really clear. They don't gain more HD, therefore they don't advance.

Hit Dice: Treat as the master's character level (for effects related to Hit Dice).

This most certainly does not mean they have more HD - it means they are treated as having more for effects that relate to hit die, not for anything else.

As for Darkvision, that could be argued either way. With no other notes about it, since they are magical beasts they should follow the rules for magical beasts, which would include darkvision.

The type of HD should be d10 as well - strictly by the rules as written. The familiar's "normal" total of hit poitns should be base upon it being a magical beast rather than an animal.

I think the intent was not that, but the rules should have been written to reflect the intent, then.

The rules should have said that a familiar's creature type is "magical beast," not animal, but hit die and other animal properties do not change except as noted below.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

I agree with you Artoomis. And much as I'd like my familiar to have darkvision (as a PC), they probably should not have it. After all, the PHB goes through a list of all their abilities and bonuses. It even goes so far as to provide a supplement with all familiar's statistics!

And yet, no where does it mention they have darkvision and low-light vision. You have to own the MM to get that information.

I think this is a case of two different groups writing two separate books and not coordinating enough.