Fan Site Policy: When is it coming?

Brown Jenkin

First Post
Back when the GSL was released it was mentioned there would be a separate Fan Site Policy. Scott mentioned it was being worked on and would be out later. I am starting this thread so that there would be a place to post any news on this.
 

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lurkinglidda

First Post
I am disinclined to provide a firm ETA. We will post an announcement when it is ready.

The Fan Site Policy is not a license. It is not related to the GSL. We mentioned the policy when we discussed the GSL because we knew there would be fan site questions raised when the license was made public.

I'd suggest moving this out of this forum as the FSP is not OGL/GSL/STL.
 

Brown Jenkin

First Post
I'd suggest moving this out of this forum as the FSP is not OGL/GSL/STL.

I posted here because the Forum is called RPG Legalities and this seems more related to this than anywhere else I could have posted it. While not GSL, it is the WotC legal policy we are waiting for as far as how much and what we can post about/for 4E without being sued by WotC. I am fine though if the Mods think there is somewhere better.
 

Lizard

Explorer
I am disinclined to provide a firm ETA. We will post an announcement when it is ready.

I am curious why, given that 4e has been in development for 3+ years, and copyright law hasn't changed meaningfully in that time, this sort of thing wasn't whipped out and gathering dust long before the actual game development was past the first alpha draft of the rules. It's not like licenses/policies need extensive public playtesting or the like. I'm rather surprised that the existing fan site policy isn't simply extended; if the FSP is purely non-commercial, it should be a lot simpler and more straightforward than the GSL.

(For that matter, it seems that copyright/trademark law provides all the non-commercial fan site policy needed; I suppose there might be a TOS for use of logos/graphics or a registry of 'official' fan sites, but it's not lke WOTC could do anything about a site which doesn't use copyrighted images or otherwise violates existing IP law. I think the TSR "we own armor class" fiasco proved that quite handily. Really, all the policy can do is offer MORE than copyright law does; by definition, it cannot offer less. (The OGL/STL/GSL all offer less, but also have a major carrot -- commercial use rights of valuable IP. Remove the carrot, and no one will put up with the stick.) So it ought to be pretty simple, something like "You can't run ads, and you can use this cool logo as long as you don't post offensive/illegal material and otherwise make us look bad." I can't imagine what else it could be, but I suppose we'll know eventually. In the meanwhile, of course, people will be throwing up their own fan sites without waiting for 'policy', and the longer they exist on their own, the more resistance there will be to any changes unless the benefits are really worth it.)

And the usual "If we publish something that by coincidence looks like something on your fan site, tough noogies" boilerplate -- but again, normal copyright law covers that pretty well, too.
 

I am curious why, given that 4e has been in development for 3+ years, and copyright law hasn't changed meaningfully in that time, this sort of thing wasn't whipped out and gathering dust long before the actual game development was past the first alpha draft of the rules.
Yea, I'm amazed by this.

I'm trying to figure out what this (lack of) action means between the lines. Taking this long, and failing to get the legal ducks in a row prior to release does no one any good. Its not good for the community, the company, nor the individual end-consumer. But I guess it doesn't really matter in the end....

What has the legal department been doing for the last year..or 3 years? I wish WOTC would at least shed light on why the delay.

Is there anything redeeming about all of this? I don't want to be just another hater on the boards, but I'm really awestruck by all of this. I just do not see how these issues could possibly be handled this poorly. The game is completely out and released, yet the legalities concerning the game are still in development....what!!??

I apologize for what may seem repetitive childish ranting, but how in the world could these legalities not be addressed until just now...and then take so long on top...?

I'm amazed.
 

lrsach01

Explorer
They are probably gauging how prevalent and what level of quality fan material will be. If (for example) Several site publish high quality pdf's that extend 4E far beyond the strictures of the GSL, WotC will have to step in and shut them down. This would be especially true for fan sites of popular (relatively speaking) campaign settings like Dragonlance or Dark Sun. If, however, fan sites release small low quality additions that simply fill limited niches, WotC can sit back and not come down on anyone too hard. If they take a hard line stance immediately, they run the risk of losing the good will of the fans and there by losing 4E sales. It's all a matter a perception.
 

Lizard

Explorer
They are probably gauging how prevalent and what level of quality fan material will be. If (for example) Several site publish high quality pdf's that extend 4E far beyond the strictures of the GSL, WotC will have to step in and shut them down. This would be especially true for fan sites of popular (relatively speaking) campaign settings like Dragonlance or Dark Sun. If, however, fan sites release small low quality additions that simply fill limited niches, WotC can sit back and not come down on anyone too hard. If they take a hard line stance immediately, they run the risk of losing the good will of the fans and there by losing 4E sales. It's all a matter a perception.

Again, this comes down to copyright/trademark law. Legally, pretty much every setting WOTC/TSR has published is heavily loaded with trademarks, and there's plenty of established legal precedent for that. It's VERY unlikely WOTC would ever issue a formal policy which said "You can use our old trademarks freely, as long as don't sell it" or the like. (They might do this for specific sites via a privately negotiated contract, but it will never be broad policy.) If the issue is "how much can we look the other way", then that's an issue for internal debate but it will NEVER show up in a formal policy; any 'fan site policy' will be written so as to give them the broadest possible net the law permits, just in case.

As for 'waiting to see what fan sites produce', since many people are waiting for the policy, isn't this counter-productive? Besides, WOTC doesn't have the manpower to police GSL submissions -- do you think they'll be scouring fan sites to see if "The Net Guide To Warlocks" is up to their standards?

Really, again, this is an issue where the OGL worked perfectly -- it applied to non-commercial ventures as well as commercial ones -- and the GSL is nigh-useless. WOTC has thus far been mute on precisely what they hope the GSL to accomplish, so it's hard to judge how much of a success the GSL will be in the commercial area. Dancey's goals for the OGL might have been hubristic, but they were at least clear. The goals for the GSL? Not so much. Ditto the fan site policy.

It's hard not to fear that the fan site policy will be designed to limit/reduce competition for Gleemax, which wants to be the "MySpace for geeks". The current poor performance of Wizard's boards and the slow rollout for DDI isn't exactly making people look to Gleemax as the hosting solution of choice; the fact it will be ever under the watchful eye of Hasbro also seems like a threat to creativity and freedom of expression. I will assume they will offer all sorts of incentives for people to use their hosting for fan sites, but it's hard to guess what kind of goodies they can offer which will overcome the negatives and poor initial launch. First impressions last a long time on the net.

I suppose we'll see when we see.
 

Xyxox

Hero
We'll see, but after the TSR internet fiasco of the 90s, I am disinclined to ahve anything to do with 4E without such a policy.
 

pbrink

First Post
Again, this comes down to copyright/trademark law. Legally, pretty much every setting WOTC/TSR has published is heavily loaded with trademarks, and there's plenty of established legal precedent for that. It's VERY unlikely WOTC would ever issue a formal policy which said "You can use our old trademarks freely, as long as don't sell it" or the like. (They might do this for specific sites via a privately negotiated contract, but it will never be broad policy.)

Again - here is this idea that WotC's publications are loaded with trademarks. Where do people get this idea from? Trademarks do not spontaneously erupt from nowhere - they require active efforts from their prospective owners in order to form. Also, how could a non-commercial website ever violate a trademark? Trademark violation require that:
  • a trademark exist;
  • it's used (without permission) as a trademark, and
  • that the use is in commerce (that is on or in relation to the sale of goods and services), and
  • the usage confuses consumers as to the source of the goods or services.

How would a fan-site qualify for trademark infringement under these circumstances? A fan-site would need to sell stuff - and then of course it wouldn't be a fan-site any more - in order to get within the scope of trademark legislation.
 

Xyxox

Hero
Again - here is this idea that WotC's publications are loaded with trademarks. Where do people get this idea from? Trademarks do not spontaneously erupt from nowhere - they require active efforts from their prospective owners in order to form. Also, how could a non-commercial website ever violate a trademark? Trademark violation require that:
  • a trademark exist;
  • it's used (without permission) as a trademark, and
  • that the use is in commerce (that is on or in relation to the sale of goods and services), and
  • the usage confuses consumers as to the source of the goods or services.

How would a fan-site qualify for trademark infringement under these circumstances? A fan-site would need to sell stuff - and then of course it wouldn't be a fan-site any more - in order to get within the scope of trademark legislation.

The problem with fan sites would be exclusively related to copyright and would center around images, if you ask me.
 

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