Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[EditorBFG]

Well, if nothing else, I think the question of armor vs. damage thresholds drives home that a Rogue type character should get sneak attack at 1st level, as in D&D, as opposed to the Scoundrel who has to wait several levels.

 

[Gentlegamer]

As a suggestion, perhaps weapons could have an Accuracy stat to help differentiate them if the damage ranges are too close to each other. For example, a longsword could have a +1 or 2 to hit built in, representing how great such a weapon is for precise melee attacks in combat, while an axe might have greater base damage, but without any Accuracy bonus. I believe the LEJENDARY ADVENTURE game uses a stat like this.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Well, if nothing else, I think the question of armor vs. damage thresholds drives home that a Rogue type character should get sneak attack at 1st level, as in D&D, as opposed to the Scoundrel who has to wait several levels.

Why?

 

[Flynn]

Well, if nothing else, I think the question of armor vs. damage thresholds drives home that a Rogue type character should get sneak attack at 1st level, as in D&D, as opposed to the Scoundrel who has to wait several levels.

BTW, Saga allows the Scoundrel to take Sneak Attack at first level. You might be thinking of Grim Tales, which makes Sneak Attack an advanced talent and thus only selectable after 2nd level.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[EditorBFG]

BTW, Saga allows the Scoundrel to take Sneak Attack at first level. You might be thinking of Grim Tales, which makes Sneak Attack an advanced talent and thus only selectable after 2nd level.

Maybe I thought it was farther up the tree because in Saga the list talents alphabetically, rather than in the rough order you acquire them. Or maybe it was reading posts like this:

Well I notice a BIG depower for the rogue as SW SAGA stands. A scoundrel would have to spend ALL of his talents to match the rogue's sneak attack. It would take even more talents to get evasion, uncanny dodge I and uncanny dodge II (this time from the scout's talents lists).

(From this thread.)What is Particle_Man talking about exactly?

However, I think the point is going to be mute. My partner in crime, BFGEditor, is married to the core Simple/Martial/Exotic Weapon concepts of the game, and given our arrangement, as that is closer to the core that we are working from (an OGL Fantasy Saga project), it is the direction we will likely go.

I don't want to steamroll anybody on this being obstinate. I just don't understand why Simple/Martial/Exotic and Weapon Groups are not compatible. What about these categorizations makes them mutually exclusive? How does having one hurt the other?

Why?

Well, because even with the Condition Track kicking due to high damage, Saga was clearly designed for higher damage melee and ranged weapons, so a Rogue getting +1d6/2 levels isn't going to throw anything off. That's all I meant (that and I was mistakenly arguing against a change that I thought Saga had made which turned out to be imaginary on my part; I'm smart like that).

 

[drothgery]

Maybe I thought it was farther up the tree because in Saga the list talents alphabetically, rather than in the rough order you acquire them. Or maybe it was reading posts like thisFrom this thread.)What is Particle_Man talking about exactly?

In Saga, each time you take the sneak attack talent, it gives you +1d6 damage. So he's saying that to match a 20th-level Rogue's 10 sneak attack dice, a 20th-level scoundrel would have to spend all of his talents on Sneak Attack. And that's correct as far as it goes, but it's not really how you work sneak attack in Saga (if you're building a sneak attacking scoundrel); you just want to build up damage enough that you're reliably beating damage threshholds, and then work on other talents that push people further down the condition track when you do it. And while you wouldn't get many of the Rogue's abilities with either variant of sneak attacking scoundrel (because many Rogue abilities are Scout talents in Saga), you would have ten feats to do something with that you didn't in D&D.

 

[EditorBFG]

As a suggestion, perhaps weapons could have an Accuracy stat to help differentiate them if the damage ranges are too close to each other. For example, a longsword could have a +1 or 2 to hit built in, representing how great such a weapon is for precise melee attacks in combat, while an axe might have greater base damage, but without any Accuracy bonus. I believe the LEJENDARY ADVENTURE game uses a stat like this.

As does White Wolf. I don't think it is necessarily right for d20, but thinking about ways to represent the fact that the deadliness of some weapons is based on Accuracy instead of damage, I had a bizarre idea:

Be patient, this is just an idea, and it is something of a departure from Core. But it is something directly derived from the logic of current d20 rules.

See, in games I participate in, Weapon Finesse gets used a lot. Like, a lot a lot. So many characters rely on Dexterity that it is a no-brainer for them to pick the feat up. So, it got me thinking that there are many characters-- especially archers-- who never (or hardly ever) use their Base Attack Bonus modified by Strength. Conversely, there are some characters who are just tanks, and always close in with something like a greatsword. And This also got me thinking about Flynn's observations regarding how people learn to use certain weapons and realistically very few people are able to pick up any weapon and use it the way Jet Li does. And certainly there are many people who hit the gun range on weekends and do extremely well, but wouldn't be able to swing a sword with any accuracy.

So I think it might be interesting to entertain the possibility of giving characters two base attack bonuses: one for Str-modified attacks and one for Dex-modified attacks.

Let's call them Might and Finesse (or maybe Precision). A swashbuckling type could have a Might of 3/4 his level and a Finesse equal to his level. A burly barbarian could have Might equal to his level and Finesse equal to 3/4 his level. Normally, Might is for Melee and Finesse is for ranged, and Weapon Finesse becomes a feat that lets you use your Finesse stat with a light melee weapon instead of just with ranged weapons.

What makes me excited about this is what we could do building advanced and/or prestige classes this way. Another poster pointed out that if a prestige class is just mechanically superior to the base classes, and still allows access to base class talents, there is no reason to ever stay in a base class past 7th level or so. You would just switch over as soon as you could, because there is no advantage to not changing classes. So, I think advanced and prestige classes need to almost exclusively represent increased specialization, rather than the model of "Fighter BAB and wizard spells together" or "monk unarmed attack and cleric spells together" we see in many recent WotC offerings. (Unlike the rest of this post, this last bit of design philosophy is something I'm pretty certain about.)

But with this, it becomes easy to separate the different fighting styles of warriors, or to make a more martial rogue type who still is not superior to a fighter. Because, to my mind, the fighter would still get both Might and Finesse equal to his level-- possibly, it would be the only class, even including Advanced and Prestige Classes, to do so.

It also occurs to me that there is a model here for other classes as well. Maybe each base class should have a single numerical thing it is most efficient at, and no AdvC or PrC should ever exceed that...

Anyway, I am just thinking out loud here, so I know this could all be rubbish. But tell me what you think.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I've always felt that the Rogue Sneak Attack is too powerful. As the Rogue adds bonus damage dice it's like he's also adding a Fireball or Lightning Bolt spell to his attack. I've felt that the Sneak Attack ought to be an increased chance for a critical hit (increased threat range) with a slowly increasing critical damage multiplier.

I guess I feel this way because 1. the Sneak Attack shouldn't be something that outdoes Warrior-types in combat because the Rogue isn't a "combat class" (a Rogue wanting more combat prowess should multiclass to Fighter/Warrior) and 2. using increased criticals seems much more "system compatible" for the d20 system then giving bonus damage dice.

How do criticals work in Saga?

 

[EditorBFG]

How do criticals work in Saga?

Always crit range 20, damage x2, and no roll to confirm.

 

[tsadkiel]

So I think it might be interesting to entertain the possibility of giving characters two base attack bonuses: one for Str-modified attacks and one for Dex-modified attacks.

. . .

Anyway, I am just thinking out loud here, so I know this could all be rubbish. But tell me what you think.

That's really, really clever, and I very much like the philosophy of each base class being the best at one particular thing. That said, however, it's not what I'm hoping to see from this product. It adds a layer of complication, and I'm looking for simple.