Fascinate Overpowered? A Question on Initiative

[takasi]

I played in a new Shackled City campaign last night and we had a question about the bard's Fascinate class ability. Here is the situation:

The party is in a shop talking to an NPC gnome shopkeeper. No one has any weapons out and the conversation is not intimidating. The DM suddenly asks for us to roll for initiative. The bard wins and decides to use bardic music to fascinate the shopkeeper and the DM allows it.

One of the players protested, saying that once initiative is called you can't use fascinate. The reference for this reasoning is quoted here: "The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working." The first issue is "nearby combat". If the target is hostile and intends to attack but hasn't had a chance to yet (flat-footed, lower on init) and no one is else hostile (wielding weapons, casting spells, making a move to attack) then has combat really started? And if it has (by the one person being targeted) does that meet the condition above?

The player felt that fascinate would be "overpowered" at higher levels because of the extremely high DC potential (and suggestion). IMO it isn't that powerful, because it can only happen in specific situations against a very limited number of creatures (and types) and provides very little advantage to a party. There are also many ways to break the fascination, including wielding a weapon, casting a spell or having another enemy shake the target.

I'm trying to find an article from WotC that addresses this. Does anyone have any suggestions?

To further complicate things, when we asked why the DM called for initiative he said it was because the shopkeep intended to cast color spray. The protesting player (don't ask why he likes to protest, it's fun for the group to debate these little issues somtimes) is claiming that due to the simultaneous nature of turn based resolutions the fight had begun immediately. I see it a different way. Although everyone's actions are, for the most part, occuring simultaneously, the fact that you can 'change your mind' in the middle of a round based on another character's actions means that you can't assume what someone "should have done" (in this case engage in combat).

Or is this a moot point because the wizard 'surprised' the party in the first place? Should initiative order have been called at all? Are there other situations where tactical turn based resolutions are used outside of combat?

And in case you're wondering the shopkeeper made his will save.

 

[Vorput]

Unless the rest of the party saw combat coming- the shopkeeper should have gotten a surprise round.

Fascinate is an over-powered ability*- I only allow it in my games because it's a bardic ability, and they need something.

Given that the shopkeeper didn't get a surprise round, and the bard got to act first- I'd say combat hadn't yet started... just like if someone has a hand on their sword- combat hasn't yet started- they're merely ready for it.

Anyhoo, DM is always right

Vorp

*- It's overpowered because the fascinate check is so high (a skill based will save?!), and you can keep making suggestions OVER and OVER with no penalty to failure on them.

 

[darthkilmor]

To further complicate things, when we asked why the DM called for initiative he said it was because the shopkeep intended to cast color spray.

I dont think initiative should have been called. I would have done something like "The shopkeeper begins casting a spell. You can roll spellcraft to tell what it is."

 

[Bad Paper]

Unless the rest of the party saw combat coming- the shopkeeper should have gotten a surprise round.

uh, no, everyone was aware of everyone else. Suddenly the shopkeeper goes for his guns; the bard reacts faster.

 

[takasi]

Unless the rest of the party saw combat coming- the shopkeeper should have gotten a surprise round.

This seems right to me, but the other player (being a power gamer and somewhat of a rules lawyer) would want to know how he could have prepared for this to act during the surprise round. And if the bard gets in on the surprise and wins initiative would fascinate still work?

 

[Felix]

This will mark the first time I've ever heard the possibility of a Bard's abilities being overpowered.

That being said, here's the pertinent text:

The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working.

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.

There was no nearby combat.
There was no obvious threat (thought there might be one soon).

The only reason this ability might not work in this situation is becasue of the text: "or other dangers". If the shopkeeper for some reason sees the party as a clear danger to him merely by their presence, then the ability would not work. Note that the PCs do not necessiarly need to know why they represent a danger, because they are not the shopkeeper, and don't know his motivations.

But if the shopkeeper does not see the party as an immediate danger, then the ability will work fine. Further argument is specious until the DM weighs in with the NPC's motivations.

---

Tell your power-gaming buddy to stuff it when it comes time for the Bard to shine; it's not as if it's going to happen all that often.

 

[frankthedm]

I think the DM should not have even given the PCs the chance to roll initiative. The DM should have the Shopkeep’s Bluff opposed by the player’s Sence Motives. Those who beat it, like the shopkeep, roll for init and act in the surprise round.

 

[takasi]

I think the DM should not have even given the PCs the chance to roll initiative. The DM should have the Shopkeep’s Bluff opposed by the player’s Sence Motives. Those who beat it, like the shopkeep, roll for init and act in the surprise round.

That sounds good. So assuming they roll initiative and the bard goes first in the surprise round, should fascinate work?

 

[Bad Paper]

I would only agree with Frank's bluff/sense motive mechanic if there were also a sleight-of-hand/spot mechanic as well. The shopkeeper (let's call him K) must produce a material component (three pinches of powder or sand) in order to pull off the casting.

I would say it's just too weird. K feels threatened and suddenly goes for his guns. You can roll all the Sense Motive and Spot checks if you like, but frankly I think the simple initiative check is better.

And yes, I would let the Fascinate work, if only for moving the plot along.

 

[Stalker0]

In this case, since the shop keeper was intending to do something hostile, I would have ruled he already felt like he has in combat, and so facinate wouldn't work.