Fascinate Overpowered? A Question on Initiative

[moritheil]

Overpowered bards, mmm. This thread was highly diverting and entertaining!

I would not personally go for bluff - or if I did, I'd allow those with spellcraft to see if they recognized the spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

In these situations, I do not use Bluff. What does Bluff have to do with it? The shopkeeper isn't bluffing, he's pulling his guns.


I typically use Spot in these types of situations. The DC would be anywhere from 10 to 20, depending on how intense the conversation is. If the shopkeeper is being shifty, I'd put it on the low end. If the conversation is quasi-threatening, I'd put in on the low end. If not, I'd put it on the higher end. Also, the Shopkeeper could be pulling out some coins, a recipe, a piece of chalk to write with, etc. A PC would have to recognize a danger from the action in order to react in a surprise round. So, this would increase the difficulty of the Spot check as well.

But if a PC is in a shop, s/he is not typically looking intently at the shopkeeper every single second. Even in conversation, people do not always look only at one person. At best, people look at the person talking. Adventurers would especially be the type to look around, see what's going on, etc., even while in conversation. So, a (smart) Shopkeeper makes his move whenever most PCs are looking away or even at a random point in time.

But to me, this is a Spot check. No bluff involved. In fact, many of my combats that have a surprise round start with a Spot or Listen (or both) roll.


Another possibility is to use a Sense Motive instead of a Spot against a set DC. For example, using the Hunch DC 20 of Sense Motive.


As for Spellcraft, I typically do not use that in a surprise round except for "after the fact". Spellcraft doesn't make characters go faster or more capable of reacting, it just gives them information.


The problem with just rolling initiative is that it negates the concept of surprise rounds completely if the PCs are aware of the existence (but not necessarily the threat) of an NPC. Surprise rounds are not only for ambushes where the PCs do not see it coming at all.

 

[Rackhir]

Calling Fascinate over powered is overstating the case, but it can be devastating in the right circumstances.

1) As noted the DC on it can be effectively unbeatable since it's a skill check, which means that on a mid level (9-14) char you can be hitting DCs of well above 30. Which pretty much no characters in that range can make.

2) While it doesn't work once combat has started, it can be used to set up a situation where the opposing side is at a severe disadvange when combat does start. IE. Characters flanked, surrounded, threatened, etc...

3) Also even though some situations will allow a re-roll on the save, due to the potentially unbeatable DC this is likely to be of little use to the victims.