Favored Classes - Use them?

[Spatzimaus]

I don't like ditching the Favored Class rule in general, because that's one of the racial advantages of Humans and Half-Elves. Let anyone do it, and now straight Elves are superior to Half-Elves in too many ways. Sure, you can compensate in other ways, but you didn't.

Also, having them take one level of a class solely to qualify for a PrC that doesn't really fit with their previous class? Sorry, but that screams "MUNCHKIN!!!", even if it wasn't intended that way. Hunter of the Dead is basically a Paladin class, that some Clerics can qualify for. It's not supposed to be available to everyone who wants to kill Undead, IMO.

Here are some solutions:
1> Let the character retroactively trade Monk levels for Cleric levels until he reaches a point where he wouldn't have a penalty. So, instead of a 5 Monk, have him turn to a 3 Monk/2 Cleric, but require some in-game work to get this.
2> Modify Hunter of the Dead. Since you said your campaign was very undead-heavy, that PrC would be overpowered anyway, and the fact that other classes want to be this solely to counter your in-game setup is a good sign of this.
So, remove the Turn requirement and the abilities depending on it, tweaking it in other ways.
3> Work with the player to develop a PrC both of you can be happy with, and that makes more sense for a Monk. Keep the Monk BAB/unarmed progression, saves, HD, skills, etc. but give some of the Hunter of the Dead's anti-Undead abilities instead of the usual Monk stuff.
4> Let him trade a few of his Monk special abilities to get a low-end Turn Undead. Or have him spend a Feat or two. Or both.
5> Or, make more anti-Undead items that Monks can use and tell him to stick with his existing class. Bracers of Striking (Disruption) are a nice start. If undead are very common in this world, it'd only make sense that these sorts of items would be available.

Personally, I'd pick option 3, but I'm a big fan of individualized PrCs.

 

[jerichothebard]

I don't like ditching the Favored Class rule in general, because that's one of the racial advantages of Humans and Half-Elves. Let anyone do it, and now straight Elves are superior to Half-Elves in too many ways. Sure, you can compensate in other ways, but you didn't.

Good point there - what other ways do you have in mind?

Also, having them take one level of a class solely to qualify for a PrC that doesn't really fit with their previous class? Sorry, but that screams "MUNCHKIN!!!", even if it wasn't intended that way. Hunter of the Dead is basically a Paladin class, that some Clerics can qualify for. It's not supposed to be available to everyone who wants to kill Undead, IMO.

I disagree with the munchkin call quite strongly - no choice made in the spirit of developing a complex character, in response to changes in their circumstances, can justifyably be called Munkchkin. However, the note about undead hunters being a paladin-based class is very true - and I made the point that he will likely face some prejudice (and hazing) in the training halls for having been a monk. Particularly since I created a counterpart Mage Hunter PrC and associated order which is mainly monk-based.

Still, telling him he can't face that challenge and become what he wants to do isn't right.

2> Modify Hunter of the Dead. Since you said your campaign was very undead-heavy, that PrC would be overpowered anyway, and the fact that other classes want to be this solely to counter your in-game setup is a good sign of this.
So, remove the Turn requirement and the abilities depending on it, tweaking it in other ways.

Seems to me that's the point. They are the best of the best - a point I have made in game a couple times, as the players run into members of their order, and are awestruck. And hunters of the Dead without the Turn ability seem a little like fighters without armor proficiencies ...

3> Work with the player to develop a PrC both of you can be happy with, and that makes more sense for a Monk. Keep the Monk BAB/unarmed progression, saves, HD, skills, etc. but give some of the Hunter of the Dead's anti-Undead abilities instead of the usual Monk stuff.

well, I am encouraging him to look at the Mage Hunters (particularly since his nemesis is an undead sorcerer), but need Plan B if he is stubborn and wants to join the ranks of the Hunters.

4> Let him trade a few of his Monk special abilities to get a low-end Turn Undead. Or have him spend a Feat or two. Or both.
5> Or, make more anti-Undead items that Monks can use and tell him to stick with his existing class. Bracers of Striking (Disruption) are a nice start. If undead are very common in this world, it'd only make sense that these sorts of items would be available.

Good points both - thanks!

I do look forward to the challenge of role-playing his training - A monk in a paladin stronghold, who doesn't like to use swords and armor - he is likely to get into some sticky situations...

Thanks all - anyone else have thoughts?

 

[JoeBlank]

If you want to stick with the favored class rules you could require a feat to turn undead, as some have suggested. I believe there is just such a feat in a very recent Dragon (305 or 306). I don't have access to mine now, but will check later, unless someone with the issue comes along in the meantime.

A feat seems like a great compromise. He is still sacrificing something to get into the prestige class, but not a huge a sacrifice as forever taking a 10% XP penalty.

 

[cptg1481]

Ah the Favored Class

I personally don't use this rule, further, I don't penalize the players for multiclassing in any way. The reason.....

I think that the inherent penalties of multiclassing are penalties in and of themselves. I mean while a multiclass character is more of a jack of all trades type guy he will never be as powerfull as one of a straight class. There's the BAB penalty at 1st level for most and then loosing spell levels and the fact that most really powerful class abilities are of higher level.

I don't buy the effort required to maintain the varied and diverse skill sets option. In essence a player is making a himself a unique class by combining existing ones into the spesific role the player sees himself filling.

Take for instance...,me, I'm a military intelligence officer in the army. However, I have several varried skilll sets that I have learned over 17 years of time....like I was a sniper in the infantry, a special forces weapons specialist, an EMT, a linguist, an interrigator and a counterintelligence operator.

I don't compartmentalize these seperate skills I have molded them into one "class", which is unique to me. I draw upon all of these abilities to make decisions, plans, and utilize my skills to accomplish something. While I am sure that my skills as a sniper have atrophied over the years I still apply the fundementals I learned in that training to basic problems and such. I don't think that I suffer any penalties to one skill set because I use one exclusively for a short time or mission.

IMO multiclassing is making a unique "class" or persona for a character based upon what role they want to play in your game. I'd not penalize them for it.

 

[JoeBlank]

Ok, the feats from Dragon #305 would require taking two feats:

God Touched [General]
Prerequisite: Patron deity

Once per day call on deity for +1 luck bonus to one die roll.

and

Divine Channeler [General]
Prerequisite: God Touched, patron deity

Turn or rebuke undead as cleric one half your character level, once per day.

Still, two feats would be less of a sacrifice than the 10% XP penalty, but if the penalty will be dropped then the feats are not needed. Unless the character would rather do something like this instead of taking the level of cleric.

 

[jerichothebard]

Re: Ah the Favored Class

I don't think that I suffer any penalties to one skill set because I use one exclusively for a short time or mission.

IMO multiclassing is making a unique "class" or persona for a character based upon what role they want to play in your game. I'd not penalize them for it.

Mmmm... maybe. But, in this case, and often, I would imagine, it is not only a question of skill sets, but of organizations. You might be a military intelligence officer, a sniper in the infantry, a special forces weapons specialist, an EMT, a linguist, an interrigator and a counterintelligence operator. - but all of this is for one organization, the Army (yes, I realize that there are intra-army polititcs that divide you, but stick with me here). You aren't a sniper for the Marines and a weapon specialist for the Coast Guard and an interrogator for your local Police Department and an EMT for FDNY... and all AT THE SAME TIME. (Unless you are, in which case I wonder when you sleep, much less game.)

In this case, the monks, the paladins, and the clerics, are all three branches of the same government, but guided by radically different philosophies. That makes dual and triple membership problematic. I think.

I still haven't decided. I asked the players, and am still waiting on feedback. Personally, I lean towards just axing the rule altogether and giving the humans in the party an extra feat at some point (6/12/18th level?) to compensate. 1/2 elves already get an extra skill point in my campaign.

But we shall see.

thanks for all the input folks!

jericho

 

[IndyPendant]

The solution, in my mind, is simple really. Give him the choice: take the 20% xp penalty, or use his next Feat to select this one:

Class Affinity [General]
You can multiclass with fewer restrictions.
Benefit: Choose one class, such as fighter. This class is now considered to be a favored class in addition to any other favored classes you possess.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new class.

 

[jerichothebard]

The solution, in my mind, is simple really. Give him the choice: take the 20% xp penalty, or use his next Feat to select this one:

Class Affinity [General]
You can multiclass with fewer restrictions.

Well, now, THAT'S elegant! I like that a LOT!

thanks!

 

[Ignus Infernus]

Hmm, yeah, the Class Affinity is a nice idea... I've implemented something like it before which worked rather nicely.

There's a feat in the FRCS (can't remember the name) that allows you to add an arcane class as a favored class... I just told my players they could modify that feat to suit whichever region their character was from if they so desired.

Still, the general Class Affinity makes it a lot more simplistic. ^_^

 

[Hashmalum]

There's a feat in the FRCS (can't remember the name) that allows you to add an arcane class as a favored class...

Arcane Schooling. Can only be taken at 1st level. I have a PC in my campaign who is an aasimar cleric of Mystra who's planning on multiclassing into sorcerer after getting a number of cleric levels (rather than splitting class levels evenly). He took this feat, since I told him I was planning on using the multiclassing XP penalty and the aasimar's favored class is paladin. Fortunately the rest of the players in my group are equally non-powergamer types, so he shouldn't lag behind the rest of the party very much.