Favored Enemy as a free disguise detection?

[Belbarrus]

There is something about the Ranger's Favored Enemy that has me somewhat bewildered. Ranger's gain a bonus on certain skills and damage versus favored creature types. For example, a 1st level Ranger may select Evil Outsiders and gain a +2 on certain skills and damage versus Evil Outsiders.

Here is the dilemna. Let's say the Ranger is fighting a human. But the human is secretly an Evil Outsider (one of the Ranger's favored enemies) with a disguise or Disguise self spell. Does the Ranger get his FE bonus when he doesnt realize that he is fighting an FE? Does the Rangar have to "know" that the target is truly a favored enemy? Can a disguise be used to prevent the Ranger's FE bonus?

What if the Ranger is fighting a human and has "Human" as a FE, but the target is really a different creature in disguise? Does the Ranger get his FE bonus because he "thinks" that he is fighting a FE?

If the DM decides to give/not give the Ranger his FE bonus depending on the circumstance, this could be a "free" way to detect disguises.

Imagine the party is fighting a powerful Human and the Ranger player states, "A-ha! I get +4 on damage because Humans are one of my favored enemies." The DM, knowing that the Human is actually a Rakshasa under disguise tells the player, "You dont get your FE bonus." Unless there is some other reason that prevents a Rangers FE bonus, the players would be suspicious at least, and be able to work out that their target is not truly Human.

Or, the other way around. The party is fighting an Orc. The Ranger does not have Orcs as Favored Enemy, but he does have "Fey". When the Ranger hits the Orc (which is a Pixie in disguise), the DM tells the player, "You can add your FE bonus for Fey creatures." Ba-ding!! The players are alerted that something is amiss.

Any thoughts on this?

B

 

[Christian]

Yes, I have a thought. Why would the DM tell the player whether or not the bonus is applying? This should be done 'behind the screen' ... There's no reason the player needs to know that the +4 bonus he's adding to his damage rolls on the 'human' is being subtracted again by the DM before applying the damage to the disguised Rakshasa's hit points. Nor that the damage from his and the other party members' non-blessed/piercing weapons is being reduced by the thing's damage resistance. (Note that the pixie might have more of a problem, as the Ranger's Spot bonus will apply to his check to penetrate the disguise ...)

 

[Belbarrus]

Well, just because of the nature of the Favored Enemy skill. The Ranger is skilled at fighting that particular type of enemy, therefore he would *have* to fight that enemy (and therefore *know* he was fighting that enemy to get a bonus.

Unlike, say a Holy weapon that does bonus damage against evil. The weapon does additional damage whether the weilder knows the target is evil or not.

The Ranger cannot apply his "special" combat tactics against a creature if he doesnt *know* he is fighting that creature.

B

 

[Zaruthustran]

Here is the dilemna. Let's say the Ranger is fighting a human. But the human is secretly an Evil Outsider (one of the Ranger's favored enemies) with a disguise or Disguise self spell. Does the Ranger get his FE bonus when he doesnt realize that he is fighting an FE? Does the Rangar have to "know" that the target is truly a favored enemy? Can a disguise be used to prevent the Ranger's FE bonus?

What if the Ranger is fighting a human and has "Human" as a FE, but the target is really a different creature in disguise? Does the Ranger get his FE bonus because he "thinks" that he is fighting a FE?

According to the rules, the ranger's perception of belief is not relevant. Only the FE and the monster's current Type are relevant.

A ranger with favored enemy human gets his FE bonus when he fights humans. Target not a human? No favored enemy bonus.

The Change Shape ability of monsters does not change the type: SRD "The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form."

Whether the DM tells the ranger that the bonus does not apply is an issue not covered by the rules.

But I would. I'd say "You strike him over where a human's kidney should be--usually a very painful hit on a human--but your target doesn't grimace the way you'd expect."

A ranger trained to spot and fight humans should be able to tell that the "human" thing he is looking at/fighting does not actually act like a human. It's like that scene in Tom Sawyer when Tom dresses up like a girl, but the woman he's having tea with spots him as a boy because despite appearances Tom doesn't quite behave like a girl. A ranger would pick up on that. Especially during a fight.

If the DM decides to give/not give the Ranger his FE bonus depending on the circumstance, this could be a "free" way to detect disguises.

It's not free. The ranger still has to hit/interact with the target.

Imagine the party is fighting a powerful Human and the Ranger player states, "A-ha! I get +4 on damage because Humans are one of my favored enemies." The DM, knowing that the Human is actually a Rakshasa under disguise tells the player, "You dont get your FE bonus." Unless there is some other reason that prevents a Rangers FE bonus, the players would be suspicious at least, and be able to work out that their target is not truly Human.

The DM doesn't need to tell the player about damage bonuses to monsters. The DM tracks damage to monsters, not players. Like the other reply said, the DM can always secretly deduct the FE bonus that the player adds.

But I think it's cool that a ranger would be able to pick up on the disguise. Example: the ranger stabs the rakshasa, and the rakshasa screams. The grizzled ranger cocks his head, then mutters "this thing doesn't scream like a human."

Or:
DM: You see a human.
Ranger: I attack! I roll a 19 to hit and a 10 for damage, including +4 from favored enemy: human.
DM: Okay that's a hit but you don't get the +4--you swing high and then low, a trick that always works on a human to expose its tender belly, but your target simply doesn't go for it.
Ranger: Hey guys! I know how humans fight, and this thing doesn't fight like a human!
Others: Good job ranger! You're fulfilling your class role of an expert hunter!

That's cool.

Or, the other way around. The party is fighting an Orc. The Ranger does not have Orcs as Favored Enemy, but he does have "Fey". When the Ranger hits the Orc (which is a Pixie in disguise), the DM tells the player, "You can add your FE bonus for Fey creatures." Ba-ding!! The players are alerted that something is amiss.

Yep. That's the way it works. A pixie that has assumed the shape of an orc is still Type: Fey. So, it moves and fights like a fey even though it looks like an orc.

Example:
DM: You see an orc.
Ranger: I attack! I roll a 19.
DM: That's a hit. As you strike, you notice that the creature hops back in a distinct way that triggers a trained counter-manouver from you. You get to add your favored enemy: fey bonus to this damage.
Ranger: Hey guys! This orc isn't an orc--it fights like a fey creature!
Others: Good job, ranger! You're fulfilling your class role of an expert hunter!

That's cool.

-z

 

[Zaruthustran]

The Ranger cannot apply his "special" combat tactics against a creature if he doesnt *know* he is fighting that creature.

B

According to the rules, yes he can.

SRD, character classes, ranger:
"Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures."

So according to the rules when deciding whether FE bonus applies you look at two things: what's listed for that ranger's FE and what's listed as the target's current Type. That's it.

*Nothing* in the rules says "The Ranger cannot apply his "special" combat tactics against a creature if he doesnt *know* he is fighting that creature."

Feel free to houserule, though.

-z

 

[Belbarrus]

"*Nothing* in the rules says "The Ranger cannot apply his "special" combat tactics against a creature if he doesnt *know* he is fighting that creature.""

Yup, that is true I guess. Adding the bonus without the player knowing is a good way to do this I suppose.


B