Favored Enemy - How does the Ranger know?

[bulatzi]

You know... I said magical more as a sarcastic phrase. You see what I mean?

I wasn't even talking about the actual ability, and it gets rules lawyered.

 

[gamerprinter]

You know... I said magical more as a sarcastic phrase. You see what I mean?

I wasn't even talking about the actual ability, and it gets rules lawyered.

Ah, you realize it's quite difficult to detect sarcasm in a forum post, I couldn't tell you were trying to be sarcastic.

And what I did was correct the point of being a (Ex) vs. a (Su), that is not rules lawyering, that is simple observation. I consider 'rules lawyering' a much more insidious activity, as in attempting to alter the meaning of a given rule though semantics of the spirit of the mechanic.

Not to be rude, but if you're not even talking about the point of this thread, what are you doing in it?

 

[Asmo]

Our group has finished Masks Of the Living God (a Pathfinder adventure) where they left Tamran, each of them with a mask and robe of Razmir.
They are going to - I assume - travel to The Looking Glass Deep disguised as followers of Razmir.
They are expected, and the first line of defense is a bunch of lvl 2 half orc rangers with favored enemy - human.
The party is 4 level and consists of 3 humans, an elf and a half orc.
How would you handle this when the defenders spots 5 humanoids wearing masks and robes of Razmir?

Asmo

 

[gamerprinter]

Our group has finished Masks Of the Living God (a Pathfinder adventure) where they left Tamran, each of them with a mask and robe of Razmir.
They are going to - I assume - travel to The Looking Glass Deep disguised as followers of Razmir.
They are expected, and the first line of defense is a bunch of lvl 2 half orc rangers with favored enemy - human.
The party is 4 level and consists of 3 humans, an elf and a half orc.
How would you handle this when the defenders spots 5 humanoids wearing masks and robes of Razmir?

Asmo

Well, the way I'd do it, is the way, I've already explained further up thread. If the orc rangers decide to attack the party of mask wearing infiltrators, they will discover that their weapon strikes are getting a +2 hit against them. They may not realize why this is happening, it's just happening. Until they unmask the party to realize they are humans, it would be a 'mystery attack bonus'.

Now whether the orc ranger party is compelled to attack the PC party and discover this advantage is a whole different story. But if they do attack, they won't need to know the PCs are humans, just that it seems to be easier to hit them, than other opponents...

Of course my reasoning, is that humans are their choice of favored enemy, and this choice has absolutely nothing to do with the orcs actually successfully identifying their foes. They don't need to, the bonus comes with choosing the right favored enemy in the given situation.

 

[tylermalan]

Now that, my friend, is a doozy.

Well, I would say that a Ranger can identify creatures by other methods than merely sight. For instance, they might know how humans move that is different from other races. I would probably have the humans make disguise checks with bonuses granted by the clothing. If the orcs can see through the disguise, they get the bonus. If not, they don't!

Maybe something like this?

 

[gamerprinter]

Now that, my friend, is a doozy.

Well, I would say that a Ranger can identify creatures by other methods than merely sight. For instance, they might know how humans move that is different from other races. I would probably have the humans make disguise checks with bonuses granted by the clothing. If the orcs can see through the disguise, they get the bonus. If not, they don't!

Maybe something like this?

This seems reasonable. But I still think you're still forceably changing how Favored Enemy works.

In my game, it isn't necessary to identify them at all, just necessary to have the right favored enemy option chosen.

 

[N'raac]

Now that, my friend, is a doozy.

Well, I would say that a Ranger can identify creatures by other methods than merely sight. For instance, they might know how humans move that is different from other races. I would probably have the humans make disguise checks with bonuses granted by the clothing. If the orcs can see through the disguise, they get the bonus. If not, they don't!

Maybe something like this?

Let's try a different approach - assume that the whole party is disguised as humans, because they don't want the elf and the half orc to be noticed. If the Orcs can't see through the disguises, do they get their bonuses against the Elf and the Half Orc because they believe them to be human, and thus their favoured enemy?

Does that mean I can cast an Alter Self on a dwarf so he looks like an Orc, and now the Ranger who has Orc as a favoured enemy gets his bonus, since he thinks he's fighting an Orc?

If tricking them into thinking the enemy isn't a FE when it is denies the bonus, presumably tricking them into thinking the enemy is a FE when it isn't should grant the bonus, right?

 

[tylermalan]

Let's try a different approach - assume that the whole party is disguised as humans, because they don't want the elf and the half orc to be noticed. If the Orcs can't see through the disguises, do they get their bonuses against the Elf and the Half Orc because they believe them to be human, and thus their favoured enemy?

Does that mean I can cast an Alter Self on a dwarf so he looks like an Orc, and now the Ranger who has Orc as a favoured enemy gets his bonus, since he thinks he's fighting an Orc?

If tricking them into thinking the enemy isn't a FE when it is denies the bonus, presumably tricking them into thinking the enemy is a FE when it isn't should grant the bonus, right?

Man... you're KILLING me!

In this case, I would re-mention something that I said in a previous post: If a Ranger can take advantage of the physical anatomy of a creature in order to exploit its weaknesses, and that creature's anatomy is what he thinks it is, then he would get the bonus. However, if he thinks he is attacking an Orc (with, say, a heart on its leg) but is really attacking an Elf (with its heart in its chest), then he wouldn't get the bonus.

If the group tricks the attacking Orcs (who have FE human) into thinking that the group is full of Elves instead of humans, then presumably the Orcs wouldn't attempt to exploit weaknesses that they don't believe are present.

If, however, the group tricks the Orcs into thinking that the Elf and the Half-Orc are human, and the Orcs attack them as though they are, then they STILL wouldn't get the bonus because Elves and Half-Orcs don't have their hearts in their chests, or whatever.

 

[jkason]

Does the need to actively identify a creature type go away if we instead think of favored enemy bonuses as due to something a Ranger's always doing? In other words, his fighting style is most heavily influenced by his favored enemies (bonus), but he doesn't specifically change tactics for them. Rather, he's developed a fighting style that's generally effective, but which he's discovered is especially effective against the opponents he's focused his hunting skills on?

That sort of thinking might carry over decently to the skill bonuses, too. He's not actively applying "I know elves think this way," to a Sense Motive roll, but the body language indicators he depends on happen to be those most prominent in elves.

 

[N'raac]

Does the need to actively identify a creature type go away if we instead think of favored enemy bonuses as due to something a Ranger's always doing? In other words, his fighting style is most heavily influenced by his favored enemies (bonus), but he doesn't specifically change tactics for them. Rather, he's developed a fighting style that's generally effective, but which he's discovered is especially effective against the opponents he's focused his hunting skills on?

That sort of thinking might carry over decently to the skill bonuses, too. He's not actively applying "I know elves think this way," to a Sense Motive roll, but the body language indicators he depends on happen to be those most prominent in elves.

This is the key - if we assume the Ranger adopts an especially bizarre fighting style only against his favoured enemy, then he needs to know who they are to combat them effectively. But, if we take the extreme "their heart is in their leg" example, wouldn't using that style against a human make the Ranger less effective, rather than just normally effective?

The RAW says he gets "+2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against such creatures.", not that he gets his bonuses if he knows he is dealing with such creatures. This seems to indicate his fighting style is no less effective than normal against other opponents, but is especially effective against his favored enemy.

The skill roll bonus is similar. It seems unlikely the ranger would typically KNOW he is making a Perception check to spot an ambush laid by Elves, rather than one laid by Gnomes, or wolves, yet he should get that bonus to his Perception skill. If he is looking for tracks, he won't know there is a Magical Beast in the group he is tracking, but he should still get the bonus to his Survival roll. He might be using his Perception to penetrate the fact his Half Orc enemy is disguised as a human. Assume his PER bonus, without FE, is +8, and the DC is 20. If he rolls an 11, does he fail (no FE bonus because he doesn't know the disguised person is a FE), or succeed (he gets the bonus because he is using the skill against his FE)?

Given the volume of "what if's" and corner cases if we assume the Ranger must know the target is a FE, it seems like the best approach, even if the rules were less clear, would be to apply the bonuses whenever the FE is the target.