FAVORED SOUL: This doesn't seem right...

[pawsplay]

Not the only time weird mistakes like these were made.

Take the Peregrine Runner PrClass (RoStone). One of the requirements is Handle Animal 4. But Handle Animal isn't a class skill for it afterwards!

I was just noticing that the other day. And they have an Animal Companion, too...

 

[DreadArchon]

The fact that they know more about dragons than the dragon shaman, who don't get knowledge(arcana) as a class skill, bothers me somewhat. ^_^

Yeah, same here.

Fighter: "Crap! Blue Dragon! Should I use my Ice sword or my Shock sword?"
Blue Dragon Shaman: "Um, um, I don't know! Uh, Cleric! What element are Blue Dragons?"
Favored Soul: "Hey, did you know that Blue Dragons can mimic the voi--oh, right. Use the Ice."

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm still convinced that Kn(Arcana) instead of Kn(Religion) is just a typo.

IIRC, the original author did it intentionally. However, I do not know (or remember if I did know) what his rationale for Knowledge Arcana was.

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course Clerics with their Domain Spells are only 1 spell per level behind, get nifty powers from their Domain, Turn Undead and access to Divine Feats, 2 good saves, have the second best BAB, decent hit points, and get to know some of the best spells in the game, and knows all of the spells on its list.

All in all, Clerics are pretty potent.

I think spontaneous spells and the third good save puts favored souls over the top. No spell caster class should have all 3 good saves. That should be reserved for a few select non-spell casting classes. Reflex saves in particular are something that virtually all spell casters are bad at.

Also, turning undead is typically a low level Clerical ability. Most PrCs do not extend it. Eventually, it is often only good for powering certain feats for Clerics.

 

[Klaus]

I was just noticing that the other day. And they have an Animal Companion, too...

Yeah. I'd give them Handle Animal and Survival (another obvious omission), and maybe Knowledge (geography) (have to take a couple of things away, though...). But then, I'm itching to play a goliath Monk/Peregrine Runner.

 

[satori01]

Also, turning undead is typically a low level Clerical ability. Most PrCs do not extend it. Eventually, it is often only good for powering certain feats for Clerics.

Bards and Beguliers have good Reflex saves, and Resistance and other spells are effective means to boost the save....but I see your point. However a class with 3 good saves vs a class with 2 good saves is not on the surface just blowing me away. You fail a Fort save and you can die instantly. Fail a Will save and your group may die. Fail a Ref save and you will probably just take damage which may kill you.

If there is any class that can find a way to cheat death and heal damage...it probably is the Crusader class from ToB but after that it is a cleric.

Spontaneous casting is not so impressive when a cleric can convert spells to the all powerful cure spell, or Domain spells with a Feat. The cleric spell list has way too many extremely useful spells but are circumstantial in nature.... especially when you look at Spell Compendium. A cleric can plan his strategy, take useful spells, and if circumstances change convert the spell to currency of D&D: Hit Points.

A player of the Favoured Soul, would be better served to play it safe and go with spells of general utility. The awesomeness of Spontaneous casting is shown with classes like the Warmage or Beguiler.

The Turn mechanic does peter out at high levels, unless you are using the damage dealing Alt mechanic. There are plenty of PrC that offer Turning Level advancement...and using Turn attempts to power Divine Feats is not a Bad Thing (TM).

If we ignore the problematic nature of Divine Metamagic,(which is a extremely generous concession to the Favoured Soul), you still wind up with Feats that either enhance your combat power: Divine Might, Divine Vigor, the feat that boosts your shield AC
or your Healing Power: Sacred Spell, the ones that grant fast healing,
or take the place of buff spells: the Divine feat that aligns your parties weapons, or grants Energy Resistance, or boosts saving throws.

If evil Profane Life leach is a great Divine Feat.
I would not underestimate the power of Divine Feats. Being able to Align your parties weapons is huge, and a cleric can essentially do it at will with the right feat. Your average Favoured Soul is probably going to have to spend one of their 4th level spells to learn Mass Align Weapon.

 

[KarinsDad]

Bards and Beguliers have good Reflex saves, and Resistance and other spells are effective means to boost the save....but I see your point. However a class with 3 good saves vs a class with 2 good saves is not on the surface just blowing me away. You fail a Fort save and you can die instantly. Fail a Will save and your group may die. Fail a Ref save and you will probably just take damage which may kill you.

Do either of these classes have 3 good saves?

Can either of these classes cast in heavy armor (granted, a FS does not get the Heavy Armor feat for free)?

Does a Bard have good spells compared to a Favored Soul?

Does a Beguiler have good BAB compared to a Favored Soul?

Bards and Beguilers also have lower hit points than Favored Souls. Granted, Beguilers have quite a few better spells. Bards typically do not with the exception of a few minor illusion spells.

Spontaneous casting is not so impressive when a cleric can convert spells to the all powerful cure spell, or Domain spells with a Feat. The cleric spell list has way too many extremely useful spells but are circumstantial in nature.... especially when you look at Spell Compendium. A cleric can plan his strategy, take useful spells, and if circumstances change convert the spell to currency of D&D: Hit Points.

Favored Souls have, for all intents and purposes, Spontaneous Cure spells just like Clerics.

But, their real advantage is spontaneous metamagic. Quite frankly, that is one of the most useful abilities in the game.

The Cleric typically has two minor domain abilities, potentially a handful of non-divine spells, and low level Turn Undead capability.

The Favored Soul has Spontaneous Metamagic capability.

This is similar to Wizard versus Sorcerer discussions. Many people think that Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards. I am not one of those people. I think Sorcerers are typically more powerful than Wizards, especially when you design the character to its strengths: spontaneous metamagic.

 

[Sereg]

...

While I agree with you about the Sorcerer vs Wizard point KarinsDad, the check on the Favored Soul other than its lack of turn undead is.... TWO CASTING STATS. This alone balances it. Having to have both wisdom and charisma (useless for the class) is horrible.



Sereg

 

[satori01]

Spontaneous Metamagic is nice...but the problem with it in general is it shifts the spell slot consumption up... and Spontaneous casters are often a level behind in terms of highest spell level.

Of course Extra Turning and Divine Metamagic means a Cleric can use Spontaneous Metamagic as well...for less cost. Again you are not addressing the biggest issue for me which is... the cleric gets his whole list, and the Favoured Soul gets a small sampling of spells.

A Sorcerer is viable against a Wizard, sure a Wizard could potentially learn every spell..but the reality is that is not going to happen. The Cleric does get his whole list.
Archetype wise what does a Favoured Soul go for?

Spontaneous Healer could work,(especially with PHB II alt class ability)...but will it be satisfying to be the Heal bot, especially when a cleric can perform the role almost as well and still have slots devoted to other useful spells like Protection from Evil or Augury.

Warrior...beyond the fact that Favoured Souls do not get heavy armor, the problem with this is you wind up selecting spells in your precociously few spells known that will wind up not being cast as often due to the Extend metamagic feat. Likewise a cleric can play the buffed up warrior role just as well, and spontaneously heal...the single minded Favoured Soul...probably not.

The Buffer. I just do not see a lot spontaneous casters go this route...bard excepted. It seems a viable archetype but how much fun would it be to play it?

Likewise having 3 good saves is nice...but not the end all be all...especially when the cleric has 2 good saves. There are so many ways to boost Saving Throws that any character that wishes to do so can find a way to minimize his weakness.

 

[KarinsDad]

While I agree with you about the Sorcerer vs Wizard point KarinsDad, the check on the Favored Soul other than its lack of turn undead is.... TWO CASTING STATS. This alone balances it. Having to have both wisdom and charisma (useless for the class) is horrible.

They only need a high Wisdom for DCs.

They could get away with a relatively low Charisma. For example, 14 at first level and with a +6 item, 20 at high level in order to cast spells from each spell level. The only other thing Charisma does is add bonus spells per day. Even without a high Charisma, they still have about as many spells per day as a Cleric.

18th level Cleric with 26 Wisdom has 6 8 8 8 8 6 6 5 5 3
18th level Soul with 20 Charisma has 9 8 7 7 7 7 6 5 4 3

When one considers how many divine spells are typically blown off as Cure spells, it's easy to see that there is not a huge difference here.


Alternatively, they could blow off most spells with saving throws and go high Charisma and lower Wisdom. In that case, they would have more spells per day than a Cleric:

18th level Cleric with 26 Wisdom has 6 8 8 8 8 6 6 5 5 3
18th level Soul with 26 Charisma has 9 8 8 8 8 7 7 6 5 3


The point is that yes, this is a balancing factor. But, it is not a real big one. They are not forced to have real high scores in both of these stats. It is not nearly as big as spontaneous metamagic.