FAVORED SOUL: This doesn't seem right...

[Votan]

PCs can only cast one or two spells per round. Having a few extra spells is white noise when compared to picking out an optimal spell for the situation as compared to a suboptimal one.

Clerics (and divine spellcasters in general) are a special case as compared to Arcane Spellcasters.

One major issue is there are a lot of cleric spells that you really need occasionally but which are not all that helpful to have on a spontaneous list (Remove Blindness, Regeneration, Raise Dead). These spells eat up a limited number of spells known but it is a major issue if they are simply not known by the favored soul. Scrolls only go so far.

The second one is that classes like the warmage have a very broad and flexible list (at least in terms of having the right spell to actually cause damage). You don't see the same ability to adapt on the fly with a cleric spell list as it has a rather limited number of spells.

The last point is the lack of domain spells -- these are powerful spells, often drastically expand options (e.g. Teleport in the Travel Domain) and can be cast spontaneously with the right feat (Domain Spontaneity). Because domain spells are not on the general divine list, some of the best spells are not available to be selected by the Favored Soul.

 

[satori01]

Spontaneous Metamagic is great for spells that have features that may not be present in other spells. The Orb spells, example that Karin's Dad presented. The question is do cleric spells have the same features.

The cure spells decidedly do not scale well with metamagic feats. In fact most of the metamagic feats are truly intended for combat spells.. Extend spell is good for buffs...but pretty much that is it.

I would strenuously argue that the versatility a Sorcerer or Warmage gets from Metamagic feats is not the same as a Favoured Soul would get. I would even argue the same for a Dread Necromancer as well...the power of Spontaneous Casting classes and metamagic feats differs upon the class.

I'd like to say the Favoured Soul was equal...I just think Divine Feats, Spontaneous Cure spells, and Domain Powers and Spells is difficult to overcome. The more spells table that someone posted on this thread showed the Favoured Soul having 4 more spells over 9 levels of spell casting than the cleric.

Thats it 4 spells per day. Not a terribly high amount...couple with that, those 4 extra spells are going to have very low DC as the build was maximizing CHA.

 

[DreadArchon]

Not one of WotC's better rules.

[sarcasm]What, doesn't everyone have a totally mundane weightless, frictionless, coherent, throwable sphere of pure force just sitting around? I know I do! Right next to my "coldness" and electricity![/sarcasm]

 

[Klaus]

Well, this thread is now moot.

From WotC's latest "Dead Levels" column:

Knowledge Specialty (Ex): At 1st level, a favored soul can choose whether to make Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion) a class skill. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

 

[Nail]

Not one of WotC's better rules.

I'm *this close* to house ruling those spells to be evocation.....

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm *this close* to house ruling those spells to be evocation.....

That would be a good start, but even that is not good enough.


As is, they do the following as a 4th level spell:

1) Sometimes do more average damage than 5th level Cone of Cold because they have no saving throw for half damage and no spell resistance.

2) Since they have a roll to hit, they can critical for double damage.

3) Damage Golems.

4) Bust through Antimagic Fields.

5) Ignore Evasion and Improved Evasion.

6) Create permanent Orb "objects" (effects?) which have no hardness and no hit points, so there is no known way to destroy them except possibly Disintegrate.


Practically the only defenses against them are a Miss Chance or the fact that the caster can roll a 1 on his to hit.

There are 9th level spells that are not this "practically automatic".


Whomever wrote these up for WotC should be fired. IMO. They are THAT unbalanced.

 

[bestone]

Whomever wrote these up for WotC should be fired. IMO. They are THAT unbalanced.

Wow, I think thats a little harsh

Imho people who play this edition (and yes i only see it as a massive problem in this edition) seem to forget that the rules are just guidelines. You (assuming your the dm) have full control over what you allow in your game. You have the right (nay, the duty!) to eliminate things that you deem overpowered. (i know this is all obvious)

But to say someone should be fired for lack of foresight? at first look at these spells, I didnt think they were overbuff. But did later realise they were such. Whomever wrote them could have easilly made the same mistake.

You cant reasonably expect someone to be able to think up every instance possible for any use possible of each and every thing they write. That would be unreasonable. Sure they made a mistake, and its your duty to fix it, if you think they are broken.

Mind you, sometimes i think wizards uses this as a scapegoat (yeah sure we broke it, but you have to fix it to balance your game).

 

[Nail]

1) Sometimes do more average damage than 5th level Cone of Cold because they have no saving throw for half damage and no spell resistance.

2) Since they have a roll to hit, they can critical for double damage.

3) Damage Golems.

4) Bust through Antimagic Fields.

5) Ignore Evasion and Improved Evasion.

6) Create permanent Orb "objects" (effects?) which have no hardness and no hit points, so there is no known way to destroy them except possibly Disintegrate.

I agree that this is what they do.

But as Evocation spells, #3, #4, and #6 go away. Won't that make them balanced? I'm interested in your opinion. (My players never use the orb spells, even at very high level.)

 

[Bad Paper]

How did this become an orb thread?

The wizard in my campaign knows that these spells make me angry, so he only takes orb of force once or twice a day, and I like OoF because it is one that I can rationalize. Not the way as written, of course, but I see it as an arcane snap-pop that does explosive damage. I'm OK with it.

It's the ones that require saving throws for secondary effects that break my head, actually.

 

[Darklone]

Orbs can be blocked with rule 0.