Fear of 1st Print Runs

[Gizzard]

Is it just me that is annoyed/irked by this phenomenon?

Well, yes and no. ;-) My GF spent several years as an editor and I notice that she is irked (outraged is perhaps a better word) by typos, mis-spellings, problems with hyphenation or word usage that I just glance right over. (Like what I did there with "mis-spelling". Did that drive you nuts? It would make her scream in frustration. ;-)

I was pretty happy with my PHB (1st printing) though I felt that some of the smaller paperbacks I bought (Stronghold Builders Guide for instance) were obviously not edited as well. I figure thats just a matter of economics; WotC probably only has so much to spend on that book and paying for a lot of edit time isn't part of their plan. Oh well.

It's just laziness that results in so much error.

This I disagree with strongly. I've watched the edit process and if you want to do a good job you end up spending a lot of time. Its just not possible to catch every mistake the first time through. As far as I can tell, there are two major things that can go wrong:

1) Not enough time spent. I've seen things like freelance editors being called a week before a 200 page manual is supposed to go to blue-line and be asked to "give it a quick look over. We have 20 hours budgeted. Is that enough?"
2) Last minute changes. Someone in marketing thinks it would be cooler if the box said "50 Missions of Mech to Mech action!" but actually spells it "50 Missing of Mech to Mech action!". The editor never sees it until they've printed 120K boxes. Oh well.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Quasqueton,

I don't blame you one bit.

I tend to give the d20 publishers a break. They tend to be doing this as a second job and I'll trade some creative spunk for bad editing (of course, no creative spunk and I get ticked). Malhavoc Press does a good job of editing, but Sue Cook is probably the best RPG editor around and she has a very personal stake in Malhavoc's success.

I will buy 3.5. There is no question in my mind. But I will wait for the reviews on EN World for exactly the reasons you cite. I feel I got burned when I purchased Tome and Blood and lost half a prestige class (Bladesinger). For my core rules that will be relied upon every game to be accurate, I do not want to see mistakes, no matter how small or understandable.

 

[jasper]

I really don't worry about the typos.
Or some errant like the -10 or something for vampires.
I read over the books and the sections made sense. When they did it was easy to line throu.

After all I have read Star Trek books which have 2 or more authors working on the story. Still trying to figure out how Sulu moved from the ship in Chapter 4 to the planet in Chapter 5 and back to ship in Chapter 6 . Small problem Chapter 4 and 5 were taking place at the same time. Oops.

Lets us not for get the two page insert the dragon mag came out with when the Unearthed Arcana came out in what 83?

So the typos be corrected when a new printing is done Yes.

Should you get out of shape over it. NO. Shut up and play and if it troubles so much send me the material and take up hobby horses.

 

[Ranes]

Quas, in response to your comment about waiting for second printings of PsHB and OA, I can tell you the PsHB has been reprinted. I bought my copy last month and checked it out against the errata when I got home; all the corrections had been made. I can't say anything about OA, as it isn't on my list of impending purchases.

Moxie, a friend of mine has a second printing of the DMG. I believe that a second printing of the MM is available too but mine is a first print with errata slipped into the back cover.

At the risk of being flamed for this view, I happen to believe the editorial standard found in the core rulebooks to be of an extraordinarily - as in uncommonly - high standard for the games industry. I realise the same cannot be argued for many of the supplements. I've been disappointed by a steady rise in simple grammatical and syntax errors in recent issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazines as well.

 

[Zerovoid]

Why do these mistakes bother you so much. I've had my 1st print verion of the 3rd Edition PHB since the day it came out, and been very happy with it. Now, I keep up on the big erratta, like changes to Polymorph Self, but that's a game balance problem anyway, and not something a proof reader could have prevented. Yes there are some typo's, but none of them have ever interfered with my enjoyment of the game. What errors in the first verions were so grievous that you felt you had to buy the 2nd?

This actually goes only for the core books though. I just remembered that the first copy of Sword and Fist was really terrible. I would definately have waited for the second in that case. It goes beyond a simple spelling mistake, since I don't think there's a single prestige class that you can use as originally printed in that book.

 

[Crothian]

Why do these mistakes bother you so much. I've had my 1st print verion of the 3rd Edition PHB since the day it came out, and been very happy with it. Now, I keep up on the big erratta, like changes to Polymorph Self, but that's a game balance problem anyway, and not something a proof reader could have prevented. Yes there are some typo's, but none of them have ever interfered with my enjoyment of the game. What errors in the first verions were so grievous that you felt you had to buy the 2nd?

This actually goes only for the core books though. I just remembered that the first copy of Sword and Fist was really terrible. I would definately have waited for the second in that case. It goes beyond a simple spelling mistake, since I don't think there's a single prestige class that you can use as originally printed in that book.

It really does depend on the book and the amount of mistakes. There are perstige classses in S&F that are unplayible without errata. But for the most part, I'd say about 95% of the first printing I have are very playible and cause me no problems.

 

[Kip the Bold]

My only real big 1st printing regret was the Star Wars d20 book. I had played the west end Star Wars game for years and was really looking forward to it. It was for the most part playable, but then less than a year after its been out WoTC puts out the revised book. No way I am going to drop another $35 bucks on it. I wish they would have put out some errata for it.

 

[Gizzard]

Why do these mistakes bother you so much.

I'll let the original poster answer for himself, but for my GF is because its her profession. Have you ever watched someone do badly what you can do well? It the most frustrating thing in the world. If you are a professional, you know the difference between a good job and a bad job - and a bad job is just inherently annoying to you.

And having someone say "huh, I didnt notice that sloppy workmanship" doesnt exactly salve the wound. They may put on a brave grin and say, "oh, well, you're right. 9 out of 10 people wouldnt notice that mistake," but secretly they are thinking, "how can people not see what a second-rate job this is? Auuugh!"

 

[DustTC]

Here's some possibilities (why RPG editing sucks):

1) It doesn't matter enough... these books aren't rocket science, nobody will die if there's an error in it. Most of them are still useable to some degree.

2) Editors in the RPG business simply aren't very talented. If they were, they probably wouldn't be working in this (relatively low-key) business. The only reason for a talented person to work in this business is interest, and frankly I think if you have a literary talent *and* interest, you become a writer, not an editor. There are obvious exceptions to the rule (as someone mentioned, Sue Cook is obviously pretty good at this - especially when you consider the rate at which Malhavoc cranks out new stuff), but for the most part, I think it's just a matter of incompetent editors. If you were a great editor, who would you be working for? Constantly down-sizing, barely-making-a-profit RPG companies or some major newspaper or internationally reknown magazine?

3) Too short time-frames and low budgets are probably a problem too. Though low budgets in fact lead to (2): lack of talented people willing to do the job at that price.

 

[Quasqueton]

Well, it's not like I lose sleep over it. But it is annoying.

When I buy the D&D rulebook (PHB, DMG, MM) I want the comprehensive, definitive, complete, and correct rules. As a DM I want to have all the correct info in my books. I want the rules clear and understandable. I don't want to have arguments with players over interpretations. As a player I want to know I'm on the same page as the DM. I don't want to get surprised by a rule different from what I read and learned.

[I'm ignoring possible/probable house rules in this discussion.]

When I buy a non-fiction book or text book or instruction book I expect everything to be correct. No one goes online to check the publisher's Web site for errata and clarifications. You expect the book itself to be
correct and complete. Why should game rule books be treated any different?

I remember times when questions to the Sage were along the lines of, "What is the offspring of a unicorn and a horse?" Silly things that really had no real rules answer.

Now the sage gets questions like, "In the X section the description says this happens when Z occurs, but in Y section the description says nothing happens when Z occurs. Which is correct?"

Or "The DMG says X magic feature costs Z amount, but Y magic item with X feature costs half that. Which is correct?"

Or "The text for X says to refer to chart Y, but that chart doesn't list anything for X."

It can get very confusing even among experts on the rules. Just look at the rules forum here on ENWorld for all the debates on commonly used rules that no one can agree on. Under what circumstances does a bag of holding rupture a hole in the planar fabric? Can a character polymorphed into a snake use the constrict ability (what is a "natural" ability)? Is there a such thing as a "shield" bonus? Etc.

Usually this kind of thing gets straightened out in the 2nd+ printing of the books. And that is pretty much what this thread is about.

As I said above, I've been an editor. I know how hard it is to reach near perfection with written material. I definitely would never think or say game editors are of lesser quality or ability. Hell, I'd apply for a game editor position if I knew of one open (and I am currently in a lucrative job). I'd even edit games as freelance. I love games. I love words. Combining the two would be wonderful. I have faith that most game editors feel the same way. So don't say they are lesser professionals.

[It is nearly midnight here and I'm tired, so I hope I didn't ramble and make mistakes that will embarass me in the morning.]

Quasqueton