D&D 5E Feats Redux

[CapnZapp]

I've made two well-visited feat-related threads previous* but this thread is triggered by the fact my OotA campaign has run to its close and I want to incorporate my playtest experiences in the next, and also because of:

The end analysis is that WotC have made it too cheap to build a ranged characters. Compared to 3rd edition, ranged fire is better/cheaper/less restrictive in at least seven ways, some more significant than others.

Roll back some or all of these ill-advised changes is the only true solution:
- getting to add ability bonus to damage (you didn't in 3E)
- getting to add Dexterity not Strength to damage
- being able to ignore cover (Sharpshooter)
- being able to ignore range (Sharpshooter)
- being able to ignore elf/target being attacked in melee (Crossbow Expert)
- being able to effectively "dualwield" a ranged weapon (Crossbow Expert)
- being able to effectively stack two weapon fighting styles (Crossbow Expert effectively gives you Two-Weapon Fighting which you can stack with Archery)
- being able to stack bow and ammo magic bonuses
- being able to "power attack" with ranged weapon (the -5/+10 part of Sharpshooter)
- being able to shoot effectively while on the move (a requisite for "kiting"). In 3E, you only got "extra attack" if you stood still

Okay, so this wasn't seven points. It was ten. And still I've probably forgot one!

Just sayin' lest we forget there is a definite price to be paid for all these cool "dex builds"...

So what I need is a list of feats that does away with all the niggles I've discussed previously: abusing the +5/-10 mechanism, ignore range, and being in melee. Plus reverting the basic rules assumption to a "melee centric game", just enough to make a difference while still allowing kewl ranged concepts.

Basic rules changes
When making a ranged weapon attack, you don't add your ability modifier to damage, unless the weapon has the finesse or thrown property.

Archery fighting style
You gain +2 to ranged weapon attacks against targets with cover.

Sharpshooter Feat
* You may add your ability modifier to damage when making ranged weapon attacks.
* Increase the short and long ranges of all ranged weapon by a distance equal to the weapon's short range. A shortbow, for instance, has a short range of 80 ft. Its range goes from 80/320 to 160/400.

Crossbow Expert Feat
* +2 to attack with two-handed crossbows
* +5 to damage with heavy crossbows
* You count the hand crossbow as a melee weapon for purposes of "Ranged Attacks in Close Combat" and "Two-Weapon Fighting" (both sections on page 195 of the PHB).

Savage Attacker Feat
* Once per turn, when you roll damage for a melee weapon attack you made with two hands, you get to roll the weapon's damage dice twice.
* On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

Cleave Feat
* Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
* Once per turn, when you reduce a creature within 30 ft to 0 hit points with a weapon attack, you can make one weapon attack as a free action.



Zapp

*) The previous feat discussions:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?494701-2016-Feats-Review
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?508501-Feat-Workshop

 

[CapnZapp]

As you can see, this accomplishes the following:

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Notes visavi the list from the quote:

You do get to add Dexterity to ranged weapon attacks, but only at the cost of a feat (Sharpshooter). I don't want to cripple ranged characters, just make them non-standard.

You can't ignore cover and range. You can offset cover and range, but it's still better if the target is open and near. Most famously, the short range of hand crossbows remain short.

There is no way (short of a Legolas subclass feature ) to ignore the disadvantage of being in melee.

The Archery / Two-Weapon Fighting combo is averted.

You can still stack shoot on the move (movement is good and any rule that discourages movement is bad). You can still stack ammo and weapon magic bonuses (don't hand out lots of +3 arrows).

---

As for feats:

Sharpshooter is needed by every serious archer, so yes, go ahead and call this a "feat tax". Except you don't need it to fight with spells†, melee weapons, or thrown weapons! If you want the range, pay the cost!

Crossbow Expert feat does three (completely different) things:
1) it readds the Archery benefit, used here to simulate how crossbows were easier to handle than bows
2) it gives a little oomph to Heavy Crossbows, making this a viable choice for single-attack builds
3) it allows two hand crossbows gangsta style, following the exact same rules as two shortswords. You don't even get disadvantage when in melee!

In all cases, there is no way to avoid the loading property of crossbows. So fire once and draw your cutlass!

Greatweapon Fighter is split in half (and removed).

One half is Cleave, which now works on ranged attacks within 30 ft. (Everything that encourages ranged characters to stay close is a good thing). And it doesn't consume your bonus action! (It does nothing for critical hits; however, see the next feat)

The other half is Savage Attacker, which replaces the damage boost of GWF. This feat doesn't work for ranged attacks, but it does work for all melee weapons. Since the original Savage Attacker was crap, this comes with the original Cleave half of GWM. That is, this cleave does consume your bonus action, but works also for critical hits.

 

[CapnZapp]

†) I am well aware this does nothing to curtail the Eldritch Blast, which can be said to be the strongest "archer" build of them all (the Sorlock combo).

I am inclined to simply use the following tweak:

Agonizing Blast (invocation)
* When you cast eldritch blast against a target within 30 feet, add your Charisma modifier to the damage it deals on a hit.

Yes, this nerfs not only the Sorlock but the regular Warlock too. But honestly, I don't mind if warlock players look beyond EB towards all the other builds and invocations.

At least this way, I haven't taken away the toy entirely. I've just made it riskier to use; since neither warlocks nor sorlocks want to stay in close combat.

Note: The intention is that if the target starts within 30 ft of the Warlock, the ability bonus applies, even if some or all of the blasts push the target further way (using Repellant Blast). This is also why the Agonizing range needs to be so severely short - after all, Warlocks can effectively add ~60 ft between themselves and the monster each round while blasting away (three hits with Repellant Blast plus moving back 30 feet yourself).

 

[TwoSix]

Basic rules changes
When making a ranged weapon attack, you don't add your ability modifier to damage, unless the weapon has the finesse or thrown property.

I like this change. I wonder, though, are you planning on adding the finesse property to any weapons? I don't think there's a +finesse, -thrown weapon on the equipment list that's capable of making a ranged attack. Nothing wrong with being inclusive, of course.

Sharpshooter Feat
* You may add your ability modifier to damage when making ranged weapon attacks.
* Increase the short and long ranges of all ranged weapon by a distance equal to the weapon's short range. A shortbow, for instance, has a short range of 80 ft. Its range goes from 80/320 to 160/400.

Crossbow Expert Feat
* +2 to attack with two-handed crossbows
* +5 to damage with heavy crossbows
* You count the hand crossbow as a melee weapon for purposes of "Ranged Attacks in Close Combat" and "Two-Weapon Fighting" (both sections on page 195 of the PHB).

I like these changes, too, although I generally prefer my feats to be one and done, with relatively little synergy. I'd rather not see Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter have that much synergy. In my ideal world, a dedicated crossbowman shouldn't be chasing two feats while a dedicated longbow archer only really needs one.

Savage Attacker Feat
* Once per turn, when you roll damage for a melee weapon attack, you get to roll the weapon's damage dice twice.
* On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

Cleave Feat
* Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
* Once per turn, when you reduce a creature within 30 ft to 0 hit points with a weapon attack, you can make one weapon attack as a free action.

Looking at these, I'm thinking you might like synergizing feats more than I do. (Nothing wrong with different design aesthetics.) Cleave works for ranged and melee, but SA + cleave is a great combination for melee characters.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't think I'd ever use any of these, but I might iterate them to fit my game better and use the result.

Either way, a good effort, for your stated goals.

 

[CapnZapp]

I like this change. I wonder, though, are you planning on adding the finesse property to any weapons? I don't think there's a +finesse, -thrown weapon on the equipment list that's capable of making a ranged attack. Nothing wrong with being inclusive, of course.

Oops. I was thinking about Dexterity attacks in general, hence the mention of finesse. That is, you do still get to add Dexterity to the damage of melee Dex attacks (for Finesse weapons) and ranged Dex attacks (for thrown finesse weapons).

Hm. I guess I could just change to "When making a ranged weapon attack, ..." and remove Finesse, since all ranged attacks using thrown weapons that deal Dex damage are also Finesse.

But I'm thinking about the core rule - that melee uses Strength and ranged uses Dexterity.

I don't want Finesse Dex damage to be just an unstated consequence of the way I phrase my rule. I want to express that both finesse and thrown lets you escape this new rule to really drive the point home that if you select short-range weapons (like shortswords and throwing axes), you have nothing to worry about.

Will fix. Need sleep first. Thanks.

 

[CapnZapp]

I don't think I'd ever use any of these, but I might iterate them to fit my game better and use the result.

Either way, a good effort, for your stated goals.

Thanks. Iteration is always interesting, especially if you state your goals when you do end up posting them.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Watch out for wording between "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack". By my reading savage attacker can be triggered with most thrown weapons... but can in return only trigger a melee attack.

Personally I think that's a good thing, but I realise it might be inadvertant.

 

[CapnZapp]

I like these changes, too, although I generally prefer my feats to be one and done, with relatively little synergy. I'd rather not see Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter have that much synergy. In my ideal world, a dedicated crossbowman shouldn't be chasing two feats while a dedicated longbow archer only really needs one.

Looking at these, I'm thinking you might like synergizing feats more than I do. (Nothing wrong with different design aesthetics.) Cleave works for ranged and melee, but SA + cleave is a great combination for melee characters.

Well, if the two-feat combo becomes a must-have, then obviously I have failed. But if taking one of them remains attractive far up the levels, then I have not.

The cost of a two feat combo is rather great, in that I'm thinking most characters can squeeze in a feat in between their ASIs. But two?

(What characters do with their level 16 or 19 ASIs is off less concern to me)

I just thought that after all those nerfs to ranged, allowing close-range cleaves would be an interesting new direction. It's not really a matter of "compensation"; more like using the freed up design space to encourage ranged characters to stay at close range

As for SA + Cleave: well, they are the two halves of what previously was only one feat. And I can't say I feel the combo is stronger than the old GWM. Will every melee brute take them both? I don't know.

The old Savage Attacker had the glimmer of an idea, but ended up way too weak to see any use. I like the idea of a Savage Attacker feat because it tells us something about the way you fight - you attack savagely. Something is needed to compensate two-handed fighters for the loss of off-hand attacks or shields after all.

Cleave is perhaps the more "duh, of course" feat. But still, you don't get more than the one cleave for your money. In my experience, the cleave part of GWM looks more attractive than it ends up being in mid- to high level play, since by that time competent builds will have many more ways to spend their bonus actions than they have them. So my idea was to allow Cleave to stack with all those other bonus actions, as a way to shore up the feat after the loss of -5/+10.

Of course, we could add "a cleave" as a specific rules term, and limit it to once a round, and then have both feats give a Cleave each, and now they don't stack.

But what I dislike more than I like feat synergy is the feeling when you "waste" parts of a feat. Like picking up GWM with a regular one-handed Longsword for the cleave part of the feat. Or a bow archer taking Crossbow Expert for the no-disad-in-melee feature.

But point taken. If I can come up with something else than Cleave for one of the feats, I will consider it.

 

[CapnZapp]

Watch out for wording between "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack". By my reading savage attacker can be triggered with most thrown weapons... but can in return only trigger a melee attack.

Personally I think that's a good thing, but I realise it might be inadvertant.

I realize you are saying something, but am too tired to understand what

Thanks though; I'm sure it'll clear up in the morning!