D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

[Lyxen]

I think all this story goes to show, other than questioning how the PCs got off two fireballs and the giants only got in a couple of attacks, is that D&D is by nature and design unpredictable to a degree. Sometimes fights that on paper look difficult are not really a threat, other times encounters that look easy are a challenge.

I think that's part of the fun and I don't think any calculation is going to fix that. In addition you can't please everyone.

Exactly, that's were codifying encounters for computation is bound to fail in 5e. 4e, which went further than any previous editions simplified this by having maps where starting positions were indicated, which meant that a number of DMs teleported characters and monsters on the map to the starting positions when combat started so that the conditions were as standard as possible. I'm not criticising that approach, but even in that case, initiative coud mean quite a bit of swinginess even before all the other dices started rolling.

 

[Mort]

Exactly, that's were codifying encounters for computation is bound to fail in 5e. 4e, which went further than any previous editions simplified this by having maps where starting positions were indicated, which meant that a number of DMs teleported characters and monsters on the map to the starting positions when combat started so that the conditions were as standard as possible. I'm not criticising that approach, but even in that case, initiative coud mean quite a bit of swinginess even before all the other dices started rolling.

Sure, Which is why it's always interesting to have accounts like the OP. It's impossible for 1 group (well hopefully impossible) to gather so much actual play experience and data.

For ex., I would not have expected a group with the configuration listed in the OP to have an easy time with 3 hill giants! Generally a lower level (relatively) group stomping this kind of encounter involves suggestion or Hypnotic Pattern (a big weakness of Hill Giants) or something like that. Meeting Hill Giants with brute force (fireball is still brute force really) seems the harder approach.

But that's why it's always interesting to see groups other than mine at play (for me, I'm sure for some people it's like watching grass grow).

 

[Lyxen]

Sure, Which is why it's always interesting to have accounts like the OP. It's impossible for 1 group (well hopefully impossible) to gather so much actual play experience and data.

For ex., I would not have expected a group with the configuration listed in the OP to have an easy time with 3 hill giants! Generally a lower level (relatively) group stomping this kind of encounter involves suggestion or Hypnotic Pattern (a big weakness of Hill Giants) or something like that. Meeting Hill Giants with brute force (fireball is still brute force really) seems the harder approach.

But that's why it's always interesting to see groups other than mine at play (for me, I'm sure for some people it's like watching grass grow).

I agree, but for the data to be interesting, we also need details, and in particular about the characters, because there are critical aspects like equipment, (rolled) stats, feats, etc. that are as critical to understanding what happened as are details of the situation. It also does not help when it starts with a heavy criticism of the game, on something that is hardly justifiable to that degree...

 

[Mort]

I agree, but for the data to be interesting, we also need details, and in particular about the characters, because there are critical aspects like equipment, (rolled) stats, feats, etc. that are as critical to understanding what happened as are details of the situation. It also does not help when it starts with a heavy criticism of the game, on something that is hardly justifiable to that degree...

Well, yes, details would be great.

I'm very curious how this could have been a cakewalk encounter as that's FAR outside my experience with this kind of scenario. But since we're over 160 posts in - probably not.

 

[Stalker0]

Well, yes, details would be great.

I'm very curious how this could have been a cakewalk encounter as that's FAR outside my experience with this kind of scenario. But since we're over 160 posts in - probably not.

Perhaps a list of “standard details”: things that would be informative but not so onerous people are unlikely to take the time to write them out

 

[Lyxen]

Perhaps a list of “standard details”: things that would be informative but not so onerous people are unlikely to take the time to write them out

Or, you know, just links to characters under DDB, some people do that and it's very informative.

 

[Oofta]

There are key details missing like ... how did the sorcerer get off 2 fireballs, what actions were actually taken, did the giants all fail their saves, etc.

A one time scenario with a caster going nova is not indicative of the game or the encounter rating system in general.

 

[Mort]

There are key details missing like ... how did the sorcerer get off 2 fireballs, what actions were actually taken, did the giants all fail their saves, etc.

A one time scenario with a caster going nova is not indicative of the game or the encounter rating system in general.

Yeah, even if all 3 were caught in both fireballs AND all 3 failed both saves (not too likely, Hill Giants have ok Con saves) that's only around 60 damage(on average) each. Barely enough to drop them far below half.

And I'd be curious to hear of any interesting tactics/synergies (like if the Shadow monk dropped a darkness and he and or the psi warrior had the blindfighting style).

 

[HammerMan]

You are asking for the impossible, there are far too many variables between the one that I have listed and the ones that you list, not even mentioning the ones that we miss. And what does "group with magic items" mean, how many, of what type, do they affect the combat, do they synergize with the characters and the party ?

Honestly, if you start your party at level 1, it's not that complicated to have the first encounters correct, the worst that can happen is that they are too easy, and then is that really a problem ? And after that, as the characters grow in level, you will forge your own experience and learn how to create encounters that fit your party.

As the designers say in the SAC about rules: "Many unexpected things can happen in a D&D campaign, and no set of rules could reasonably account for every contingency..."

I think including a side bar or two that helps would be better then doing nothing...

example: If your party has a + magic item to hit remember they are hitting like a party multi levels (+1 prof) higher would. a +3 sword on a 3rd level character makes them hit as often as a 20th level PC with no items. Magic that goes to defense (like AC) does the oppisite it makes the monster hit as if they had LESS prof. a 5th level party with 4 PCs with 2 +2 weapons and all 4 having atleast 1 +1 to AC will fight more like a 9th-10th level party BUT they wont have the HP so it will make the dice more swingy.

example2: If your party rolls for stats (remember that is the default) having PCs with much higher or lower stats allows them to hit or be hit more or less often. a good rule of thumb is if the PCs have X more then the standard array add 1 to there level if they have X less then the standard subtract 1. if some are higher and some

example 3: some feats are more powerful in a hit harder and some are more powerful by giving more options, if you see a PC has regularly in play been able to ahndle harder and harder monsters considering counting the whole party as one level higher.

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, even if all 3 were caught in both fireballs AND all 3 failed both saves (not too likely, Hill Giants have ok Con saves) that's only around 60 damage(on average) each. Barely enough to drop them far below half.

And I'd be curious to hear of any interesting tactics/synergies (like if the Shadow monk dropped a darkness and he and or the psi warrior had the blindfighting style).

The math:

assuming standard dc 15 save (18 stat +3 prof).

chance of a fail (-1 dex save) = .75
Chance of all 3 fails: .42

general average: 28 x .75 X 3 + 14x .25 x3 = 63 + 10.5 = 73.5

if all hit: 28 x 3 = 84