Fellow DM's how would you deal with this player?

[Anabstercorian]

Yes, allow him to remain in the group. But, for humor value, keep a bamboo swatting stick at hand to threaten him with jovially should he act up again.

This really does sound like something that could be solved with good communication, and I really don't think this'll happen again.

 

[gizmo33]

After about ten minutes, I knew I couldn't DM fairly because I was mad. I refuse to DM in that sort of situation. That's never happened to me before. I've always been able to shake stuff off, but the more I thought about it I realized, it wasn't a math error or a misunderstanding being questioned, it was something else on a personal level.

I wish I had this sort of sense. I had Asmodeus blip in and kill a long-running PC in my game a long time ago because I was mad at the way the PC had treated his henchman.

I think it's insightful for you to recognize that something happened to you on a personal level. In terms of developing as a DM, IMO coming to terms with the way that you felt, and what caused you to lose control is where you stand to make the most out of this situation.

Maybe this guy is just someone you can't play with. I guess the first thing is to decide that. If you think there's a chance that because it affected you so deeply that something else is going on, then I understand not wanting to make a quick decision to bounce him out of the group until you have your own feelings in order.

Control is one of those BIG things about people in general, and it certainly applies to DMing. DMs get upset when they don't feel like they have control over the game. My guess is that is what is bothering you. But you can have control without having to manage every detail. Why not just have this guy keep shadow stats from now on? (This assumes you're in the mood to reconcile). Assuming that you can DM without fudging that sort of thing. If he's not proven himself untrustworthy, it might actually help - especially when you've got hordes of goblins to deal with, it could be a time saver. Once you know he's doing this, you can just check with him periodically. But he has to respect that he's a backup, and that you are the final judge of the game. I think the fact that he ambushed you with this is what was really disrespectful. If he wanted to keep stats, why was it secret? So this is a tricky situation and you might just have to bounce him from the game.

I have a rules-lawyer in my campaign right now. Rather than argue with him I treat him as just another rulebook. Rather than look things up in the book, I just ask him. Interpreting the rules is not his job, but I don't mind him telling me what they are. I just I didn't need to be threatened by it. Though it really bothered me at first. Then again, it's important that this dude accepts my ultimate athority as the interpreter. If he didn't, it wouldn't work. Once I started asking him for rules quotes he really calmed down. If I decide not to follow the rules as written, I simply explain why (as I've always done) and things just move along. We get along a lot better now than we did when he first started playing, and I actually miss him when he doesn't show up to a game session and I have to flip through all of books. It's like a rules robot - it's pretty cool.
DM: "Computer! What is the DC of trying to cast a spell while riding a horse?"

 

[Lasher Dragon]

It's like a rules robot - it's pretty cool.
DM: "Computer! What is the DC of trying to cast a spell while riding a horse?"

That's me and one other guy in our group. It's cool because I know about half the rules by heart, and he knows the other half.

 

[James Heard]

Control is one of those BIG things about people in general, and it certainly applies to DMing. DMs get upset when they don't feel like they have control over the game. My guess is that is what is bothering you. But you can have control without having to manage every detail. Why not just have this guy keep shadow stats from now on? (This assumes you're in the mood to reconcile). Assuming that you can DM without fudging that sort of thing. If he's not proven himself untrustworthy, it might actually help - especially when you've got hordes of goblins to deal with, it could be a time saver. Once you know he's doing this, you can just check with him periodically. But he has to respect that he's a backup, and that you are the final judge of the game. I think the fact that he ambushed you with this is what was really disrespectful. If he wanted to keep stats, why was it secret? So this is a tricky situation and you might just have to bounce him from the game.

Sounds like me, I routinely ask my players to run sections of bad guys, design my traps, interesting treasures, bars, roll my dice, keep track of how much damage they've done to the bad guys, etc. I GM and I'm juggling a million balls at once keeping everything up in the air, I WANT them to help me out these ways so I can pay more attention to pacing and plot. What else do players have to do sometimes in between rolling for damage? I put 'em to work.

 

[gizmo33]

Sounds like me, I routinely ask my players to run sections of bad guys, design my traps, interesting treasures, bars, roll my dice, keep track of how much damage they've done to the bad guys, etc. I GM and I'm juggling a million balls at once keeping everything up in the air, I WANT them to help me out these ways so I can pay more attention to pacing and plot. What else do players have to do sometimes in between rolling for damage? I put 'em to work.

I'm jealous. Most of my players are not that energetic. They barely want to keep track of their own hitpoints.

Typical Gizmo Player: "No, I'm not getting up to move my miniature, I'm covered in cheesy poofs, the battle board is far away, and I'm tired. Let's just say my guy is somewhere over in that area over there (gesturing with a cheesy poof)"

Other Gizmo Player: "What do you mean? I have no idea how many arrows I have left. I'm a hero, not an accountant."

 

[Mercule]

First, anyone can have a bad night. Maybe that night was this guy's night. Talking to him is definitely the answer. Find out why he was doing it. Make a decision on whether you think he's really sorry or just sorry it blew up in his face.

I have a player who used to question a lot of my motivations and rules interpretations. He could get pretty passive-aggressive about it ("I'm not sure I can play in a campaign that works like that"). He's also my best friend and very much not like that outside of gaming. So, I used to bend a lot, just to keep things smooth. Sometimes, I wondered whose game it really was.

Finally, I got to the point where I was just ticked about it. He questioned the fairness of an encounter, the timing of it, and such things in an email to me. My response was to lay out the numbers for him, noting that this was the last time I'd stand to justify things like that to him. I told him that he either trusted me as a DM or he didn't and if he trusted me, then he knew I was playing fair and not out to screw the characters or make things unfun for the players. I did not chew his butt. I was very matter of fact about it.

Since that day, he's been pretty much exemplary in terms of abiding by my decisions, not questioning things, etc. Sure, he doesn't agree with every ruling I make, but he phrases things much more respectfully and cooperatively, now. I never need to worry about losing control of the game to him.

So, you never know. You may end up with an excellent player out of the deal.

I have a rules-lawyer in my campaign right now. Rather than argue with him I treat him as just another rulebook. Rather than look things up in the book, I just ask him.

I'm not necessarily a rule-lawyer -- as in I don't try to find various loop-holes or that sort of thing. I have, however, played for over 20 years, almost exclusively as a DM. I suspect that I've consumed more pages of rules for 3.5 than anyone else in my group as for all the games they've played, combined. It's very, very hard for me to not spout off with an answer to any rules question. When I had the chance to play for a while, my DM used me in a similar way. Made things much easier for both of us.

 

[Gorrstagg]

There is a lot more going on here than just getting upset.

And to have lingering doubts about your ability to DM is unusual. You were challenged inappropriately, but you had to lay the law down. Okay not a big deal. That you stopped playing so you didn't take it out on your players was a smart thing.

But, the guy apologized profusely. Realized how damn wrong he was. Life should go on.

If your not sure you can DM because of this, I would be asking myself why?

If it's the player being present, and your losing face in front of others. Well you have three choices. Kick him out and get back to playing. Get back to playing with him in the group. Or just give up and hide away.

Truth of the matter is, it seems your experiencing the challenge portion very strongly and it's affected you more than you realize. But you have to consider, like a good leader, either you get back up from the challenge as if Nothing happened, and move on with the story. Or step aside for someone else to do the job.

You need to remember, he wasn't truly challenging you despite what it seems like. He was challenging the running numbers, which by the way may of been a problem with another DM of his in the past. Thus you inherited it part and parcel. Now that you've shown them your information that was kept track of, you either move on or move out.

And by the way, regardless of whether you or he was correct, numbers mistakes happen.

I've had players keep track of damage dealt to a specific foe, (though they don't know how effective the damage was, due to not knowing if said monster had DR or a resistance of somekind.) That conflicted with my information, and over the years, sometimes they were right, and sometimes I was right. Because I made a mistake and marked the damage down on another opponent.

But I didn't take it personal. And after a short review, I would state my final ruling and move on. Why would I get offended by a player tracking stuff?

It keeps him busy and at the gaming table.

Your probably unhappy because the challenge lasted so long. And that's something YOU need to deal with personally on a private level with yourself.

Do I think the player was wrong for being stubborn about his information? Yes I do. And I would also give him a one time final warning. If he disrupted play like that again, and didn't take my final ruling, he's out of the group. No questions asked. Just get up pack your gear and leave the game. Then I would take a 5-10 minute break and make sure he didn't key a car, and watch him leave. Then we get back to gaming.

~~~~

I consider myself a rules lawyer as a DM. I like to know the crunchy stuff so I can run it properly. And every now and then I will make a mistake and a player will point it out. I'll thank them, because how likely will I be to make that mistake in the future? Very unlikely. And it doesn't diminish me as a DM.

It's human to make mistakes, and it's human to forgive.

So forgive yourself, and the player. Lay down the law, and move on.

This isn't even remotely enough to stop someone from DMing.. and if it is.. it's not the problem in question that is causing the stoppage. That's the DM in question.

(I have been gaming 23 years, so I'm not some green newb with this perspective. It's been gained over many years with many different groups of people and experiences.)

 

[ARandomGod]

What would I do.

First of all, it's one offense, it was apologised for. I'd let it go.

Mostly.

On the other hand, I'd start making a LOT of custom monsters and abilities... and I'd start blatantly lying to the character about out of game, metagame issues.

For instance, once a player in one of my games who has a tendancy to act a *little* like this informed me that 'the caster can't have done that, you didn't roll concentration'. Well, I *had* rolled, he didn't notice it. So I told him that the caster didn't NEED to roll, he autoconfirmed at that point. Hearing this he paled slightly and you could see him adding up numbers in his head to figure out exactly what was the minimum level that caster needed to be...

Later I corrected him, told him not to worry about reminding me about game rules occasionally, especially if it looks like I'm forgetting them... and told him that I was messing with his mind and I had rolled earler while everyone else was going, to speed up the game.

But it was so much fun making him think he was facing a 17th level caster that you *know* I'm going to have to pull stunts like that again.

 

[deltadave]

Why did you even bother arguing with this person? How does this player know what is going on behind the screen? If he wants to make an issue of it, take it up after the game and move on with the action.

It sounds like he was on probation and new to your game, so it's incumbent on you to make sure that he understands that this kind of behavior is unacceptable. perhaps he thinks this is ok since he gets away with it in other games. Disabuse him of this notion...

I wouldn't consider this rules lawyering, its just a direct assault on your integrity as a DM.

 

[James Heard]

A direct assault on your integrity as a DM??? Sheesh. It's a game! I mean, what if he'd questioned and was correct? Would it then be a direct reflection on your integrity as GM that you made a mistake? People make mistakes. Sometimes people look for mistakes and even make mistakes about thinking there are mistakes. The main problem here is the disruption, as I see it, and the GM was as disruptive as the player because he let it get him mad. If you're so serious about playing a game that some guy questioning math is getting you flustered then maybe a strong drink or two at the table is in order. I'm not razzing anyone, I just don't this ever causing a game to stop. If I even thought someone was verging on ticking me off that badly for a recreation activity I'd just kick him out and continue. There are some things worth getting mad about, some other ones worth getting even about, but this is neither.