Female gamers: Weal or woe?

[Netherstorm]

It seems like any thread about women gamers immediately turns in a bunch of guys proudly proclaiming that they play rpgs with girls and have for such a long time~!

I have had more terrible experiences with female gamers than I have with males. I like lists, so here's a list of the lovely ladies of gaming in my area:

1. Is batsh*t crazy and became extremely jealous of a second female in the group. She went out of her way to treat that girl poorly, even refusing to give her cookies that she baked for everybody.
2. Is batsh*t crazy and has a severe substance abuse problem. She freaked out when I asked the group not to drink while I DM'ed and I had to boot her when she decided to curse me out and send me insane emails. She refused to give me back some stuff I'd left at her place as "revenge".
3. Is kind of awesome. Quiet, nice, just a lot of fun.
4. Had a boyfriend but was trying to cheat with any members of the group who would look at her.
5. Is batsh*t crazy and grinds games to a halt by insisting on investigating things that very clearly have nothing to do with the adventure. She demands that wells be described accurately and takes apart every chair in every dungeon-type setting, convinced that there's going to be secret stuff in the hollowed-out legs of the chairs.
6. Only plays when the married guy she's obsessed with plays, and then spends the whole game trying to get his attention with "witty banter".
7. Is incredibly overbearing and decimated the interest of a fledgling group with a pair of awful adventures she insisted on running from memory. After an hour of her husband talking to us about the power of a dom/sub relationship, we were scrambling for the door. That group had 2 males and 4 females.
8. Is batsh*t crazy and lives off of other people's kindness (aka sleeps on their couch until they kick her out). She played "dark characters" who drank your blood and really knew about the world and stuff.
9. Was really great. But unfortunately, this was a game at a store where the players were mostly high school boys. All the guys immediately had a crush on her and spent the whole time trying to impress her and get her to go get pizza with them.
10 - 1 billion. Was only there because her boyfriend was. She was bored and distracted players with conversation about non-game stuff. One of these bored girlfriend types even showed up to our game, then left, and came back in a tiny mini skirt and fishnet leggings in an effort to titillate us.

Not that guys aren't just as bad or worse. It's that for me, decent female players are very hard to come by.

As a quick counter-point, I right now know a lot of guys playing "joke name characters". I'd rather drink AIDS then sit down at a table and join a d&d group that includes the 3rd level swordmage named "Jon Bon Jovi".

 

[ProfessorCirno]

As a quick counter-point, I right now know a lot of guys playing "joke name characters". I'd rather drink AIDS then sit down at a table and join a d&d group that includes the 3rd level swordmage named "Jon Bon Jovi".

But what if it's a bard...?! ;p

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

First, Welcome to the boards!

It seems like any thread about women gamers immediately turns in a bunch of guys proudly proclaiming that they play rpgs with girls and have for such a long time~!

Second, I can't speak for anyone but me, but personally, its been spotty. I've been in the hobby since '77 and didn't play alongside a woman until ten years later. There were a few that popped up in the late 80's.

The next one popped up around 1992 or so.

Then nothing until around 2000, and none since 2004.

I have had more terrible experiences with female gamers than I have with males.
<snip>
Not that guys aren't just as bad or worse. It's that for me, decent female players are very hard to come by.

Third, those aren't entirely consistent statements...

As a quick counter-point, I right now know a lot of guys playing "joke name characters". I'd rather drink AIDS then sit down at a table and join a d&d group that includes the 3rd level swordmage named "Jon Bon Jovi"

Fourth, that is your right, but why bring it up?

Besides... what if the player is playing Jon Bon Jovi after he passed through a dimensional portal (a la Joel Rosenburg's "Guardians of the Flame" novels...or the D&D cartoon) with his similarly transposed buddies, Vin Diesel and Wil Wheaton?

 

[CharlesRyan]

Business as usual. There was no crazy drama. There were no pillow fights. It was just rolling dice, roleplaying, killing monsters and taking their stuff.

Exactly.

 

[Desdichado]

That's what I meant by bringing it up. That the mere indirect presence of women can do that.

Not with people I game with. Have you considered gaming with people who have rudimentary social skills?

 

[El Mahdi]

Having played d&d almost exclusively with an all male group, the concept of a female gamer is somewhat foreign to me. In the dozen or so sessions I've played with female players, I've found that female gamers, by virtue of their gender alone, change the gameplay experience dramatically.

Most of the time it's a headache.

Hear me out now, I've got nothing against female players. They're awesome and everything. The problem arises mostly with the male players whenever there's a female present. They almost always act differently. Some guys will hold back from being their normal selves and restrain themselves from cracking potentially offensive jokes where they otherwise wouldn't hesitate. Some guys will go out of their way to try to impress the female, in game or otherwise. I've wanted to pull out my hair during sessions where guys spent the entire 3 hours chatting up the girl, distracting her and everyone else from the session and holding it up.

Has anyone else had similar experiences? How do you deal with it? I want to include a few female friends into my gaming sessions but I don't want the atmosphere of the group to change.

I'm sure some of what I'm going to say has probably already been covered, but I'm not going to read through the plethora of posts in this thread to be certain. So, at the risk of repeating what others may have said...

First off, I'd like to say that the very fact you're asking this question shows that you've reached a point in your life where you are questioning the immature actions of some of your friends. This is a good thing. It shows that you find such behavior to not be okay. So, the following is more for your players than you.



Every person is significantly different from every other person, regardless of gender. Every person changes the gameplay experience dramatically simply by their presence at a game. Gender has very little to do with it. Every person has a unique set of conceits, values, experiences, and foibles that effect the synergy of a group. Gender is only one part of that unique package, and all in all, IMO the least impacting factor.

The problem isn't female players, the problem is the male players that can't act maturely around a female, or act so immaturely when not around a female that they have no practice acting properly when required. If they feel cramped, or unable to speak freely and tell offensive jokes when a female is around, that's probably a strong indicator they shouldn't be telling such jokes when females aren't around either. It's called Integrity, and is a sign of Maturity. Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching (or there to hear the offensive jokes).

Saying that a female gamer is the cause of the problem is absolutely no different than blaming D&D for the actions of idiots (Exhibit_A). It's the very same false logic that groups demonizing D&D use.

I have never had similiar experiences, and except for a couple of gaming groups while I was stationed in Korea, I've never participated with gaming groups that didn't have female gamers (not specifically a choice, just the way it happened to work out). In fact they have all been fairly close to 50/50, and I honestly wouldn't have it any other way. The all male groups I participated with in Korea, were probably the least fun of all the groups I've ever participated with (although that's not to say they weren't fun). For me, there is just somehing significant lacking from "all Male" games.

However, the tips for dealing with this situation are very simple:

First: introducing anyone new to a game will change the atmosphere of a group, whether female or not. If all you're looking for is to add someone who thinks, acts, and feels exactly like those already in the group, then respectfully: What the hell is the point of even bringing in a new player? RPG's are a collaborative group activity. If all that's wanted are people as like minded as possible, synergy dies and the game ceases to be a group activity. IMO, I'd rather stay home and watch golf on TV (which I equate to watching paint dry) than participate in a group with no diversity or synergy.

Second: although it shouldn't be necessary, setting down some ground rules may help. Make sure everyone understands this is a group game, not a singles bar. The participating female gamers are there to play a game, not be hit on. If your players are having a hard time knowing how to behave and interact with a female player, then have them use the "Sister" rule of thumb. Simply have them view any female gamer as their sister. You can say or do anything you'd do around your sister. If something you want to do or say would be inapropriate around your sister, Don't Do It! That should also take care of the problem of trying to impress or chat up the girl in the group (unless one comes from a place or background where hitting on your sister is considered normal).

Third: if none of the above work, I suggest ditching the guys who can't adjust and keeping the female gamers. If they aren't able to act maturely, it may be time for you to move on to more mature pastures. Trust me, in the long run it will be worth it.


P.S.: None of the above is to say that men are necessarily less mature than women, quite the contrary. There are just as many immature women as men. The point is, immaturity has nothing to do with gender, just as gender has very little to do with what is causing problems with your group. The problem is Immaturity, pure and simple.

 

[pawsplay]

If you want to include female gamers then talk to your players now, and see what everyone wants. It will change the dynamic, and there is sexual tension when you add them. ... It seems to me that the advice of keeping any sexual attraction off the gaming table is the way to go.

And yet gay gamers manage to play together all the time.

 

[Barastrondo]

And yet gay gamers manage to play together all the time.

Man, consider the plight of the bisexual gamer. How does he or she ever manage to focus?

 

[alleynbard]

And yet gay gamers manage to play together all the time.

You should know we can't control ourselves either. I can't keep my mind off the straight players or the gay ones. My mind just spins with uncontrolled lust. Every one of our games just turns into a mess as our will breaks and we give in to our, sometimes latent, gay desires.

The female players just shrug and go watch television for awhile.

I think I may have seen a movie like this once. If I haven't, perhaps I should make one.

 

[maddman75]

The problem female gamers mentioned - the attention seekers, derailers, and those without the social sense to not make everyone uncomfortable - have nothing to do with gender. It has to do with gamers. Its a combination of the geek social fallacy that we have to accept people for what they are, no matter how offensive their behavior, and that escapist games attract people who are socially defective.

Now don't get me wrong, I love gaming and think that most gamers are by and large awesome people. But the combination above can lead to a perfect storm of dysfunction, where a broken person seeks an escapist hobby and those playing don't feel comfortable correcting them. They're no different than the CatPissMen or the guy that leers at your wife all game, or the guy who gets really baked before he comes over, or any of the 'horrible gamer stories' I'm sure we've all heard. A wise man once told me that gaming with strangers is only a slightly better idea than taking candy from them.

The short version, gamers can be horrible people and the presence of a vagina does nothing to change this.