Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

[Sundragon2012]

I have to chime in here because something always bothered me about the archfiends from 1e til now.

According to their write ups, these creatures have control over entire planes of existance, entire infinite realms of existance much like someone having complete control of our universe, not just our galaxy, but countless billions of galaxies within the measureless expanse of our reality. And just like our universe has no "crystal sphere" neither do those in DnD any longer. So we are talking about infinite spaces here.

Now, think about this. Grazz't controls 3 layers of the abyss, that is three infinite realities, each of which, being infinite can contain as many inhabitants as every other plane of existance combined. Grazz't rules everyone and everything therein as sovereign. Same goes for Orcus, Demogorgon, Baphomet, etc. though the numbers of infinite realities each controls is different.

How the hell do creatures with CRs of 23-32 control entire realities of infinite space? It seems utterly ridiculous to me to think that these creatures, who epic level PCs can slaughter, are the immortal "gods" of their own realities and are in fact so completely, for the responsibilities assigned to them, pathetically weak and cosmically inconsequential.

Now I could imagine a few logical workarounds that make sense (and please no...."this is a game so internal consistancy needn't apply"...in that case the new book should include Papa Smurf and Batman as archfiends because you can have that if no one looks at internal consistancy).

Onto the workarounds:

1.) Archfiends are empowered by the plane they dominate. They are nearly omnipotent and omniscient within the planes they rule providing them with the temporal and spiritual power to utterly dominate the entire plane(s) they rule. Outside of those realms, they are statted and slayable. This of course makes them invincible within their realms which is a no-no in the modern D&D era which requires that every sentient being be killable by a group of superhe....um...epic PCs with cool epic weapons.

2.) They are actually gods as they were in Planescape/2e and their avatars are what appears in the BoVD and similar write ups. They rule the planes as gods should, absolutely.

3.) They really don't rule their planes absolutely, but instead have the most control within a chaotic and mad realm of any creature therein. For all intents and purposes they are the mightiest demons/devils/yugoloths/etc. with the best press within their perspective realities their power lying not in divine power but in control and resources others in their planes cannot approach.

4.) They really don't rule entire planes and it is nothing more than a bit of poetic license that ever allowed such cosmically weak and fallible creatures to do so. In the ancient world, a regional event was sometimes described as a world destroying cataclysm because the people affected saw their land as the center of the world.

These are the possibilities that allow for internal consistancy and good sense in regards to who and what these creatures are.

I am partial to options 3 and 4 myself. Others like the god thing (which I do not save in a setting by setting basis) and some may like the over the top stat blocks put together by the folks at Dicefreaks. YMMV.


Chris

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Sundragon!

Interesting points you raise.

GC - I'll reply to you a little later.

I have to chime in here because something always bothered me about the archfiends from 1e til now.

According to their write ups, these creatures have control over entire planes of existance, entire infinite realms of existance much like someone having complete control of our universe, not just our galaxy, but countless billions of galaxies within the measureless expanse of our reality. And just like our universe has no "crystal sphere" neither do those in DnD any longer. So we are talking about infinite spaces here.

Yes and no. Each layer is spatially infinite, but the populated area under control of the demon prince/arch-devil is roughly the same size as a planets landmass or less...note that Fraz-Urb'luu's Realm detailed by JJ in the Demonomicon was continent sized.

Think of it like this. The outer planes are kosmically localised. Just like the Prime Material Plane they may be infinite in size but only the areas visited are known. The people of Oerth have never met the people of other inhabited planets in their galaxy. Similarly the Demons from Yeenoghus Realm have never encountered demons from other realms that may exist on the same abyssal layer, simply that they are so far apart that they have never met. It could be that Khorne, the Warhammer Blood God has a realm on that layer, or that Mabelode; the Sword God has a realm on that layer. Also note that each planet will have their own corresponding demon cosmology.

So if we could take a map of the Prime Material universe and overlap it with a map of each layer of the outer planes, the planets and the corresponding realms of the outer planes known to the residents of those planets would match.

Of course its entirely possible that when people of one planet are introduced to those of another, the various kosmic forces will also meet for the first time with potentially violent circumstances.

Now, think about this. Grazz't controls 3 layers of the abyss, that is three infinite realities, each of which, being infinite can contain as many inhabitants as every other plane of existance combined. Grazz't rules everyone and everything therein as sovereign. Same goes for Orcus, Demogorgon, Baphomet, etc. though the numbers of infinite realities each controls is different.

I disagree, each realm probably comprises several billion demons, mainly those of lower castes.

How the hell do creatures with CRs of 23-32 control entire realities of infinite space? It seems utterly ridiculous to me to think that these creatures, who epic level PCs can slaughter, are the immortal "gods" of their own realities and are in fact so completely, for the responsibilities assigned to them, pathetically weak and cosmically inconsequential.

See above.

Now I could imagine a few logical workarounds that make sense (and please no...."this is a game so internal consistancy needn't apply"...in that case the new book should include Papa Smurf and Batman as archfiends because you can have that if no one looks at internal consistancy).

Onto the workarounds:

1.) Archfiends are empowered by the plane they dominate. They are nearly omnipotent and omniscient within the planes they rule providing them with the temporal and spiritual power to utterly dominate the entire plane(s) they rule. Outside of those realms, they are statted and slayable. This of course makes them invincible within their realms which is a no-no in the modern D&D era which requires that every sentient being be killable by a group of superhe....um...epic PCs with cool epic weapons.

Unnecessary.

2.) They are actually gods as they were in Planescape/2e and their avatars are what appears in the BoVD and similar write ups. They rule the planes as gods should, absolutely.

I agree with this (although I prefer gods in the £rd Ed. sense not the 2nd Ed./Planescape sense). Most demon princes (and their peers) are worshipped in some capacity, so this is logical.

3.) They really don't rule their planes absolutely, but instead have the most control within a chaotic and mad realm of any creature therein. For all intents and purposes they are the mightiest demons/devils/yugoloths/etc. with the best press within their perspective realities their power lying not in divine power but in control and resources others in their planes cannot approach.

I would say they control their realms as gods do (because they are gods) but not that they and their realms are one and the same.

4.) They really don't rule entire planes and it is nothing more than a bit of poetic license that ever allowed such cosmically weak and fallible creatures to do so. In the ancient world, a regional event was sometimes described as a world destroying cataclysm because the people affected saw their land as the center of the world.

They don't rule entire planes, only the kosmically localised portion of such planes.

These are the possibilities that allow for internal consistancy and good sense in regards to who and what these creatures are.

I am partial to options 3 and 4 myself. Others like the god thing (which I do not save in a setting by setting basis) and some may like the over the top stat blocks put together by the folks at Dicefreaks. YMMV.

No point worrying about the stats unless you are playing an epic game.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

It might help if you were at all familiar with the material you keep bashing.

Thats why I have you to keep me right Shemmy!

Outsiders aren't all created from individual souls, divest yourself of this idea because it doesn't hold true in every case. Not at all. Many of them are, many of them aren't.

See below.

Among the true outsiders, we'll use as an example the trio of main fiend races, they're the physical manifestations of the abstract alignments of CE, NE, and LE. They might spawn from the raw substance of their native plane, they might breed with one another, or they might create the least of their kind from mortal petitioners. Baatezu and Tanar'ri use petitioners for this purpose, though the yugoloths don't.

I'm happy to accept the "spawned from the raw substance of the planes idea" since you could envision that some portion of the spirits destroyed on their native planes are absorbed by the plane itself. For demons this could mean that the death of Orcus on his home plane meant the power of Orcus was subsumed in part by the plane and in part by his destroyer (Highlander style). Using some sort of powerful ritual Quah-Nomog was able to retrieve Orcus spirit from oblivion and Orcus brought back the secret of unmaking.

It's less that the fiends are exclusively created from the souls of dead mortals, they're not, than that some mortal souls happen to closely mirror CE or LE, or NE larvae who can be forcibly molded either way, becoming more like the fiends who recruit the most refined of those souls into their own ranks. The vast majority of them are killed or eaten or never used though, only the mortals whose depravity makes them fit to be turned into the least forms of Tanar'ri or Baatezu. For the Baatezu, lemures will on rare interval spawn from the essence of Baator. For the Tanar'ri, they'll spawn from the Abyss or screw each other or use petitioners to swell their ranks, they're not picky. Yugoloths don't form the least of their kind from petitioners, they have no direct link to petitioners, just to the raw substance of the Gray Waste and Gehenna. No mortal soul becomes a 'loth, though you could look at it that once the plane devours the essence of those mortal souls the worst of all of those mortals gets distilled into newly spawned mezzoloths.

Interesting point you noted about the eating of larvae. I'm of the personal opinion that the eating/destruction of other spirits is how Outsiders 'grow' in power. As such it seems prudent to accept that process 'reverse engineered' in that demons (for instance) could spawn other demons by splintering some of their quintessence (spirit power).

But I don't see this as a case of two Babau creating a third as much as I see a sundered Babau being magically divorced into two entities, each weaker than the original creature.

Which is one of the reasons that the Abyss tends to massively outnumber opposing armies of Baatezu in the Blood War. The Abyss in many ways is a giant breeding ground and slaughterhouse all in one, pumping out millions to die senselessly in the Blood War each and every hour of every day.

Nonsense. Lets put this into perspective, the Abyss probably outnumbers the Hells about 74:1. Not 10,000,000:1. Any ideas to the contrary are ludicrous.

As soon as the Upper Planes are actually at war with the lower planes in some sort of Blood War #2 they'll think of that, but the fiends are quite happily slaughtering one another at the moment thank you, so it isn't an issue. The celestials are quite happy to wait and let them butcher each other without them needing to get involved on any sort of organized scale.

If the demons could breed with each other they would easily overwhelm every other plane (that didn't instigate a breeding program) within 50 years through sheer weight of numbers. Thats why the idea of outsiders able to breed with one another is silly.

 

[Aaron L]

Hey Sundragon!



Think of it like this. The outer planes are kosmically localised. Just like the Prime Material Plane they may be infinite in size but only the areas visited are known. The people of Oerth have never met the people of other inhabited planets in their galaxy. Similarly the Demons from Yeenoghus Realm have never encountered demons from other realms that may exist on the same abyssal layer, simply that they are so far apart that they have never met. It could be that Khorne, the Warhammer Blood God has a realm on that layer, or that Mabelode; the Sword God has a realm on that layer. Also note that each planet will have their own corresponding demon cosmology.

So if we could take a map of the Prime Material universe and overlap it with a map of each layer of the outer planes, the planets and the corresponding realms of the outer planes known to the residents of those planets would match.

Of course its entirely possible that when people of one planet are introduced to those of another, the various kosmic forces will also meet for the first time with potentially violent circumstances.

That is fascinating, and very close to an idea I use. Very VERY close.

 

[BOZ]

Some cool finds Boz. I'll have to get around to finding #141 and #233. Not sure about #36 but hey.

*thinks Boz is right about the post fight but still sides with Shemmy and Krusty.* I'm Chaotic that way.

that's ok - i'll just pick up my toys and go home.

err, that is, i'll collect up my posts (and bits from others') and probably start a "Demonic Lore" thread. it will undoutedly be more useful that way, than spaced around throughout a 10 page thread.

 

[Erik Mona]

If you wanted to drop in a reference or two to Turaglas ("The Ebon Maw," issue #312) while you were at it, I certainly wouldn't take it amiss.

I've been trying to find a way to work him in, but my quick read through your article suggested to me that he is no longer on the Abyss, and in any event his layer was not named or numbered. If I missed it and you can point it out for me, I'll see what I can do.

--Erik

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

. Similarly the Demons from Yeenoghus Realm have never encountered demons from other realms that may exist on the same abyssal layer, simply that they are so far apart that they have never met.

Yeenoghu rules his whole layer, and, if he desires and pulls power away from other activities, can be at least dimly aware of everything that goes on in that infinity at once. In a sense, Yeenoghu and his layer are one thing - the process of becoming an Abyssal Lord means entering into a symbiotic partnership with the layer, wrestling it into submission with your will and joining with it so that you and the Abyss are one flesh and one mind. This is dangerous - the Abyss may devour those not strong enough, and this will only make them stronger.

Things are similar for other planar lords, though most other planes are less wild. Mastering a layer of the Abyss is like mastering a wild bronco, while in Baator, for example, it's more like orchestrating a merger with a corrupt corporation in an even more corrupt nation where you don't own more than half the shares (and perhaps much less).

The relatively small size of Fraz-Urb'luu's realm is because he is currently weaker in power than he once was - if he were to get his staff back, he would master his layer entirely.

If the demons could breed with each other they would easily overwhelm every other plane (that didn't instigate a breeding program) within 50 years through sheer weight of numbers.

50 years, huh? Funny how you could arrive at such a precise figure considering all of this is utterly made up. This isn't science, dude, you're handwaving and coming up with random figures. I could just as easily say that the fact that demons mainly fight one another easily counterbalances their greater population, but that would be me randomly making up figures, too. We can't get precise here, because we're basing our ideas on things that have no correspondence in reality. That means your ideas are just ideas, and you can't present them as if competing ideas are somehow wrong.

In fact, demons as a race can never be more powerful than chaotic evil as a force - their power is tied to the prevalence of chaos and evil throughout the planes. Sexual reproduction, emerging directly from the plane, promotion of souls - they're all just metaphors, in a sense, just as fiends and celestials themselves are. They represent the way each alignment looks at the world, but they're not necessarily "true" - nothing in the Outer Planes is. Travellers there are interacting with symbols - symbols that can devour or transform them, but still symbols. Because it's symbolically resonant, demons appear to mortal perception as unending hordes of chimerical monstrosities with no pattern to their armies, fighting themselves as much as their enemies, while devils appear as smaller tight phalanxes of scaled and horned centurions. They may appear different to different races and cultures.

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

Yeenoghu rules his whole layer, and, if he desires and pulls power away from other activities, can be at least dimly aware of everything that goes on in that infinity at once.

I disagree.

1. Thats certainly not conducive with a being of Yeenoghu's power.
2. Its not mentioned for any of the Demon Nobles in the Book of Vile Darkness.
3. Even in Deities & Demigods the area wherein the environment is directly controlled by deities is, relatively speaking, a very small area (At best a 2000 mile radius for Divine Rank 20 Greater deities).

In a sense, Yeenoghu and his layer are one thing - the process of becoming an Abyssal Lord means entering into a symbiotic partnership with the layer, wrestling it into submission with your will and joining with it so that you and the Abyss are one flesh and one mind. This is dangerous - the Abyss may devour those not strong enough, and this will only make them stronger.

For the most part I agree with this. Its simply a measure of scale that we differ upon.

Sundragons point are still valid. Its illogical that given the known innate power, resources and time the demon nobles have existed that we can attribute to them infinite power within these realms, nor can we attribute infinite resources (which is what you are suggesting if Yeenoghu does indeed rule an infinitely sized area), neither can he have mapped anything more than a small portion of an infinite layer. It would take a decade for a teleport capable explorer to cross a billion miles of territory assuming they teleported to the visible horizon every round and never stopped.

Things are similar for other planar lords, though most other planes are less wild. Mastering a layer of the Abyss is like mastering a wild bronco, while in Baator, for example, it's more like orchestrating a merger with a corrupt corporation in an even more corrupt nation where you don't own more than half the shares (and perhaps much less).

Absolutely.

The relatively small size of Fraz-Urb'luu's realm is because he is currently weaker in power than he once was - if he were to get his staff back, he would master his layer entirely.

Well we don't know how large an area it was to start.

But theres something else to contemplate. Lets say Fraz-Urb'luus Realm shown in the Demonomicon is roughly about the average realm size of a Demon Noble who rules only part of their layer (as opposed to one who rules an entire layer). How the heck does a demon lord who becomes a demon prince suddenly go from having a 3000 mile diameter realm to having an infinitely sized realm. It just doesn't make sense.

Or do the demon lords only control one third of this infinite space for instance!

50 years, huh? Funny how you could arrive at such a precise figure considering all of this is utterly made up. This isn't science, dude, you're handwaving and coming up with random figures.

You establish a breeding program and your numbers will increase by 50% every cycle - I admit I took a liberty on the gestation period (a conservative 1 year, though it could be 1 day for demons who knows?). However, starting with two demons, after 50 years of breeding you will have more than 1 billion, after 100 years you will have 1 quintillion.

I could just as easily say that the fact that demons mainly fight one another easily counterbalances their greater population, but that would be me randomly making up figures, too.

I think that would certainly play a factor in the weaker Demon Lords retinues but certainly not in a Demon Princes retinue. The realms of the major demon princes come under threat from attack probably once every few centuries. While the demon princes are continually at war with one another the battles don't take place on their doorsteps. The battlegrounds are the peripheral layers and areas only loosely controlled. As such it would be relatively simple for Demon Princes to instigate these breeding programs safe on home soil...if it was at all possible that is.

We can't get precise here, because we're basing our ideas on things that have no correspondence in reality. That means your ideas are just ideas, and you can't present them as if competing ideas are somehow wrong.

I think we are talking about orders of magnitude rather than looking for ultimate precision.

In fact, demons as a race can never be more powerful than chaotic evil as a force - their power is tied to the prevalence of chaos and evil throughout the planes. Sexual reproduction, emerging directly from the plane, promotion of souls - they're all just metaphors, in a sense, just as fiends and celestials themselves are. They represent the way each alignment looks at the world, but they're not necessarily "true" - nothing in the Outer Planes is. Travellers there are interacting with symbols - symbols that can devour or transform them, but still symbols. Because it's symbolically resonant, demons appear to mortal perception as unending hordes of chimerical monstrosities with no pattern to their armies, fighting themselves as much as their enemies, while devils appear as smaller tight phalanxes of scaled and horned centurions. They may appear different to different races and cultures.

That's how I see it, anyway.

I think your points are just as valid with or without demons ability to breed amongst themselves.

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

2. Its not mentioned for any of the Demon Nobles in the Book of Vile Darkness.

It's mentioned in Faces of Evil, which is essential reading for the fiend-literate. Also, and more importantly, it's damned cool.

3. Even in Deities & Demigods the area wherein the environment is directly controlled by deities is, relatively speaking, a very small area (At best a 2000 mile radius for Divine Rank 20 Greater deities).

Well, exactly. That was the original poster's point - fiend lords ought to, by rights, be far more powerful than mere gods in some respects.

Although I think the radii given for divine realms is pathetically small, and that ought to be fixed as well.

But theres something else to contemplate. Lets say Fraz-Urb'luus Realm shown in the Demonomicon is roughly about the average realm size of a Demon Noble who rules only part of their layer (as opposed to one who rules an entire layer). How the heck does a demon lord who becomes a demon prince suddenly go from having a 3000 mile diameter realm to having an infinitely sized realm. It just doesn't make sense.

First, you have to understand that distances don't really exist in the Outer Planes as such. Space and time as they're known on the Material Plane don't reach beyond (or into) the Astral. The Outer Planes are realms of archetypes and ideas, of souls and spirit. Terrain shifts and warps as the ideas that make it up change, all travel times are variable, and things look different depending on who is looking at them.

Infinity, then, is just another idea, and an infinite realm is not necessarily more potent or more full of resources than a finite one.

I suppose it's like your "outsider hit dice don't correspond with size" maxim - the power inherent in a realm, and the difficulty of controlling it, has nothing to do with perceived size or travel time.

Even given that, the power of an entire planar layer dwarfs that of any mere god's domain. Abyssal layers, being only a small percentage of the entire Abyss, are generally not as important as the layers of other planes, however.

Secondly, even if you don't buy the preceding (though I believe it is not only the only interpretation that fits what evidence we have in both Planescape and the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, but also far more interesting than treating the Outer Planes as if they were mere Material landscapes) it should be obvious that a fiendish lord doesn't increase the size of her holdings linearly. She doesn't, for example, add 100 miles to the diameter of her dominion until the end of time. Conquering a layer of the Abyss means that the will of the would-be conquerer is pitted directly against the will of the layer itself, and the layer, if it is conquered at all, is conquered all at once.

Fraz'Urb-luu, then, doesn't control "his" layer yet. He controls a realm within it, as if he were a mere godling. When he regains his previous status, the entire layer will be his to mold.

You establish a breeding program and your numbers will increase by 50% every cycle - I admit I took a liberty on the gestation period (a conservative 1 year, though it could be 1 day for demons who knows?). However, starting with two demons, after 50 years of breeding you will have more than 1 billion, after 100 years you will have 1 quintillion.

This is obviously not true, or there would be no endangered species in the real world. Predation, the hostile nature of the Abyss itself (which despises all life, even its own), and constant warfare keep the numbers down to whatever level you need them to be at. Although, as I said earlier, numbers alone aren't really important - it's the power of the alignment they represent.

You could also assume that demonic populations are limited by the power supplied by the Abyss itself, and can never exceed the amount of (let's call it primal flux - you understand the reference, I think?) provided by chaotic and evil actions on the Material Plane and elsewhere

 

[BOZ]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=152741 collected all my info together, making it easier to find...