D&D 5E Fight to the death or negotiate?

I should imagine that the fact that the PCs didn't kill you when they initially had the advantage during the surprise round ought to persuade you that they won't kill you if you surrender. Wouldn't it?

I don't see why that must be so. I would have the fire giants respond with "Throw down our weapons only to be slaughtered like orc babies? Ha!" so as to telegraph to the players that the challenge is to convince the giants that surrender means they get to live. Then it's on the players to figure out how to do that. Goal: Get giants to surrender. Obstacle: Giants need assurance they will live. Approach: Whatever the players choose to do which may or may not work.
 

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Could the PCs have killed me, if they'd tried harder? Or did they give it their all, and that was insufficient?

Have I, or one of my allies, landed a solid blow on one of them? If so, how did they react? Is victory within my grasp, if I can just get one good hit in?

What are my expected odds of survival, given my estimated chances of success or failure to overcome these intruders, relative to the likelihood that they'll keep me alive if I surrender? If I keep fighting, will they choose to KO me, once I'm at their mercy? The necromancer in their party is a strong indication that they don't place inherent value in the life of a thinking creature. Chances are that the offer of surrender was just a bluff, so they could catch us off guard and defeat us without having to fight (unless they offer some compelling reason why they would want us alive).

As mentioned upthread, when I rolled a simulated first round, the giants missed their target (Paladin) 4 times, although there would have been one hit if he hadn't shielded (Cutting Words could also have come into play, but the giants don't know that). The skeleton archers launched their readied attack for 22 HP, and there were eight opportunity attacks from wolves who beat the giants' initiative (I simplified some for the sake of my sanity, otherwise there probably would have been more opportunity attacks--but I do this kind of simplification at the table too for ToTM so it's still a valid simulation), and Eldritch Blast attacks (mostly misses) and arrows from the monk and rending with wolf fangs, and at the end of all that the giants not walled away behind the forcewall were down 91 and 34 HP respectively, out of 162 HP total. Remaining totals were 71 HP and 128 HP respectively. Giants behind the wall are hammering on the wall, trying to break through (it's not going to work of course).

Under those conditions, would you say that victory looks within your grasp, if you can get one good hit in? It's your call.

If it matters, the guy who cast the Wall of Force and later tried to zap you with three beams from an Eldritch Blast (missing twice and hitting once) seems to be wearing some kind of glowing magical armor, and he is not currently in sight. He ducked out of view after his attempted zap. There's another guy dressed similarly who also tried to zap you, and is also currently not in sight. This second guy knocked you backwards 10' when his Eldritch Blast hit you (he also missed twice). There's an unarmored female elf firing arrows at you with a longbow, and this paladin with a glowing sword all up in your face who just missed you twice with a longsword, but then sheathed it to cast a spell which protected him when you tried to smash his face in. And there's also a whole horde of wolves around you (8 on you and 8 on Hrothgar, your buddy) who just tore off big chunks of your flesh and hamstrung Hrothgar.
 
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Why do the players want them to surrender? There must be some reason.

Even fire giants are intelligent to realize unknown enemies wielding power as they've seen displayed may be best to parley with if given the chance. I'd probably start negotiation. It isn't as though giants aren't aware that there are other powers in the world they need pay respect to if they want to live. One of those powers may be one they face right now. Why not negotiate and see what happens? Fire giants are cunning from what I recall. They might talk just to buy time and plan a counterattack or at least assess the situation.

If they were frost giants, it would likely be a battle since they are more like Vikings. Death in battle is vastly preferred to death while captured or enslavement.
 

Oh, and by the way, the guy who took 34 points of damage is now prone. (Knocked down by wolves, rolled a 10 on his DC 11 Strength save.)

How did the wolves knock the Giant prone? They don't have the Pounce ability. They have Pack Tactics, which gives them advantage when an ally is adjacent to the target.

It's worth mentioning, the Fire Giant could sacrifice his ability to attack, and take the Disengage action and move right through the wolves as if they were water, which is what he should do. Also, why is only the Paladin in range? Are all of the casters staying at maximum range?(120 feet for Wall of Force), if so, how did the wolves make it into combat with the Giants in order to provoke opportunity attacks, as their speed is only 40 and it would have taken them two rounds to reach the Giants? Did the caster conjure them at the maximum range, aren't the giants in some kind of den or something? Assuming, at huge "tall" size a Fire Giant is 2x2x4, then all four of them, resting comfortably, would need at least double that amount of horizontal room, so a square-footage area of a minimum of 20x20, assuming they have some space in there I would imagine their den is something along the lines of 40x40. And they're completely trapped by wolves? That's just unbelievable. Even if the wolves were set side-by-side, forming a barrier across the room, it would take 8 of them to do so, so at best you'd have a two-wolf-thick line. If a fire giant charged that line he'd make it look like a trail of ants in his path.

So what I'm really saying is that I'm questioning your math. This situation seems very, very fuzzy.

I'm not sure how your AD&D initiative and speed factors are working in here, but it feels like there's something else heavily​ working in favor of the party.
 
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How did the wolves knock the Giant prone? They don't have the Pounce ability. They have Pack Tactics, which gives them advantage when an ally is adjacent to the target.

Quoting from the SRD:

SRD said:
Keen Hearing and Smell. The wolf has advantage on
Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or
smell.
Pack Tactics. The wolf has advantage on attack rolls
against a creature if at least one of the wolf’s allies is
within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn’t
incapacitated.
Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one
target. Hit: 7 (2d4 + 2) piercing damage. If the target is
a creature, it must succeed on a DC 11 Strength saving
throw or be knocked prone.


It's worth mentioning, the Fire Giant could sacrifice his ability to attack, and take the Disengage action and move right through the wolves as if they were water, which is what he should do.

Really? That would have saved him 35 points of damage, at the cost of both of his attacks. It's basically giving all 20+ enemy creatures a free round of attacks on him. If his mindset is so defensive already, why is he even launching an attack instead of negotiating?

Also, why is only the Paladin in range? Are all of the casters staying at maximum range?(120 feet for Wall of Force), if so, how did the wolves make it into combat with the Giants in order to provoke opportunity attacks, as their speed is only 40 and it would have taken them two rounds to reach the Giants? Did the caster conjure them at the maximum range, aren't the giants in some kind of den or something?

The paladin is the only one in range because the PCs know how to count, and the Paladin deliberately advanced into range in the OP to present himself as a target. Assume a den about the size of a high school gymnasium, 100' x 60'. Giants start out initially lounging somewhere near the center, some near the walls (I rolled randomly to see how many could be caught by the Wall of Force, got 2) PCs enter from one of the doors. Call it 50' to 65' away from the giants respectively, but it would turn out the same even if it were 30' or 90' initially, since the PCs have the surprise round and know how to count movement.

BTW, you don't have to stay within 120' to maintain a Wall of Force, merely to cast it. The giants don't know this but the PCs bardlock and necrolock have ranges of 240' and 600' respectively on their Eldritch Blasts, so they have lots of range to play with.

Assuming, at huge "tall" size a Fire Giant is 2x2x4, then all four of them, resting comfortably, would need at least double that amount of horizontal room, so a square-footage area of a minimum of 20x20, assuming they have some space in there I would imagine their den is something along the lines of 40x40. And they're completely trapped by wolves? That's just unbelievable. Even if the wolves were set side-by-side, forming a barrier across the room, it would take 8 of them to do so, so at best you'd have a two-wolf-thick line. If a fire giant charged that line he'd make it look like a trail of ants in his path.

Conjure Animals has a range of 60'. I may have been too generous to the giants--I had assumed that only the wolves which won initiative got opportunity attacks on the giant(s), but in real play there's no reason the bardlock couldn't just summon them right on top of the giants before ducking back around the corner. Then all sixteen wolves would have gotten opportunity attacks on round #2 (house rule: animals conjured during combat count as surprised on the round they are summoned, since they didn't know they were about to be summoned) instead of only eight of them.

You're right that they don't block the giant's movement because they're not big enough, but that's not what's going on here. It's not completely trapped, it's just surrounded in 8 of the 10 surrounding squares by wolves. The other 2 squares are taken up by giant furniture.

BTW, the bardlock in this scenario specified his priorities as 1.) cobras, 2.) giant owls, 3.) wolves, 4.) draft horses. I rolled randomly and he got his #3 pick, wolves, instead of something better.

So what I'm really saying is that I'm questioning your math. This situation seems very, very fuzzy.

I'm not sure how your AD&D initiative and speed factors are working in here, but it feels like there's something else heavily​ working in favor of the party.

Partly luck--the giants probably should have hit the Paladin more than they did. I was surprised to see four whiffs in a row--I was expecting him to take something more like 40 points of damage, since he hadn't even activated a Blur spell or anything. Partly it's just the overwhelming force advantage of outnumbering the giants 10:1. Partly it's the power of recon and Shadow Monks with Pass Without Trace. None of that is really relevant to what I'm really interested in though, which is: how badly-outclassed does a typical giant (i.e. human Enworlder) have to be before he realizes it and surrenders without making the PCs tear him to shreds first? I don't want to lean on my own intuition here because I think I am not average enough.

So far, discussion seems to indicate that any given Fire Giant is probably not going to believe he's outclassed while he still has half his HP left. Maybe the old heuristic of "fight until half HP, or until half your comrades have surrendered or died" is valid after all.
 

Huh. Fire giants aren't proficient in STR saves. If they were, they'd have a plus 11 STR save bonus.

The more you know. In fact, only Storm giants are proficient in STR saves.

Well, anyhoo, losing to lawn gnomes sounds almost like 'I must commit seppuku for honor of family!' kind of embarrassing. Even if they live through the fight by surrendering to or running away from angry lawn gnomes, they couldn't really go home again...because they also aren't proficient in Deception.
 

Huh. Fire giants aren't proficient in STR saves. If they were, they'd have a plus 11 STR save bonus.

The more you know. In fact, only Storm giants are proficient in STR saves.

Well, anyhoo, losing to lawn gnomes sounds almost like 'I must commit seppuku for honor of family!' kind of embarrassing. Even if they live through the fight by surrendering to or running away from angry lawn gnomes, they couldn't really go home again...because they also aren't proficient in Deception.

Did you ever read Monster Hunter Vendetta? (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Hunte...08241&sr=8-1&keywords=monster+hunter+vendetta) At one point, the protagonist offends a bunch of gangster-acculturated Scandinavian gnomes by comparing them to lawn ornaments, and has to fight ten of them in a fistfight in order to smooth things over. Turns out they hit pretty hard and don't fight fair...
 

Did you ever read Monster Hunter Vendetta? (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Hunte...08241&sr=8-1&keywords=monster+hunter+vendetta) At one point, the protagonist offends a bunch of gangster-acculturated Scandinavian gnomes by comparing them to lawn ornaments, and has to fight ten of them in a fistfight in order to smooth things over. Turns out they hit pretty hard and don't fight fair...

I read the first book and decided to drop Correia from my reading list. I don't think how hard the gnomes hit matters to the giants at all. Fear of being seen as cowardly would probably keep them fighting till they dropped.

I'm fully aware of how stupid that sounds. But I grew up in a world without honorable deaths. Where I come from, dying is stupid. Where they come from, dying what all the cool giants do.
 

I read the first book and decided to drop Correia from my reading list. I don't think how hard the gnomes hit matters to the giants at all. Fear of being seen as cowardly would probably keep them fighting till they dropped.

I'm fully aware of how stupid that sounds. But I grew up in a world without honorable deaths. Where I come from, dying is stupid. Where they come from, dying what all the cool giants do.

Hmm. This could be an interesting culture for giants. Maybe it ties in with that ordning thing.

Edit: okay, I have decided to officially adopt NotActuallyTim's suggestion. My official verdict is: not only do giants fight to the death against anyone except a giant of equal or higher ordning, but it's actually built into their value system that the best death is to show no fear or dread, rather to "crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women." Even good-aligned giants have this mentality, it's just that the good-aligned ones are inclined to be kind to weaker creatures instead of cruel.

Just for fun, instead of making this tied to their religion, I'll make my giants atheists and nihilists. They don't do this because they think it will get them into Valhalla, they do it because they believe that, when the universe itself is doomed to entropic heat death, the duration of your life matters infinitely less than the quality of your living. Giants do not mourn the dead, they only spurn cowardice.[1]

Therefore, the only possible successfully-nonviolent PC approach to the Fire Giants will involve supplication instead of a show of force.

[1] I think I'll even give their language special tenses to talk about those who are dead or unborn, or in other words, those whose existence does not span the present. To a giant, there is no distinction between the two. In fact they can use the exact same tense for those who are spatially-absent as well. And all giants except hill giants are trained in mathematics.
 
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On the first round I would give a very low likelihood of surrender just because I think of giants as being arrogant with regard to their perceived superiority over smaller creatures.

After the fight starts I would use my homebrew morale rules. I use this to avoid monsters fighting to the death against obviously impossible odds.

Morale checks to flee or surrender.

Make checks at start of turn:
1) on first round, if all monsters are surprised;
2) leader is dropped to zero hit points;
3) half of monsters die.

Failed check causes monsters to flee by the most expeditious route. If unable to flee, they surrender. If surrender is accepted then PC's resumes hostilities, monsters will have advantage in all attacks for the remainder of the encounter (desperation).

Morale check is made as a DC 10 Wisdom saving throw by the leader of the monsters or ranking survivor if the leader is dead.
 

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