Fighter Archetype - Duelist

[UnadvisedGoose445]

Yes, 7th level is also a problem. It is too much of a mechanical combat bonus. The skill check stuff is wonderful. It's in line with other fighters.

Restricting the expanded crit range to finesse or light weapons doesn't do much. You're stepping very hard on the Champion's toes. And gaining both improved maneuvers and an extra fighting style at 10th is even worse. You're getting way too much, no matter how much you would try to restrict features like that. I would completely drop anything from the Champion subclass and focus on making the panache maneuvers as radically unique as possible.

This is all in my opinion, but I think it's valid!

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=6801700]UnadvisedGoose445[/MENTION]. And opinions are good, that is why I am here Thanks for taking a look. I am hearing you , but how do I explain to my group I changed all this on advice from someone called UnadvisedGoose445? Even UnadvisedGoose1 would be a hard sell.

I see what you are getting at here. I have an idea, but first. To the defense of the current Duelist, the current maneuvers need something constant to back them up. (I did not think imp crit with weapons dealing up to 1d8 max damage (1 weapon). I am torn on this one. Others?

The extra fighting style. Well, yes, that does seem too much with a maneuver (though, again, the actual maneuvers merely add another option, not something constant). Again I am torn, as there are now several Fighting Styles that really suit the duelist.

Would it look as bad if select fighting styles were amongst the Maneuver choices? (Probably yes). So, should I get rid of the 3 levels of maneuvers, go for 2 (Basic and Advanced) and then just have a 2nd fighting style here? Or lose 2nd fighting style altogether?

Back to imp crit. What if it was an actual maneuver? ie, it takes up a choice. You could further limit it by either paying a panache point (but that sounds odd, as it is after the roll), or, my preferred option, only operates whilst you have at least 1 panache point in your pool.

Fair compromises? What are your specific thoughts here.

And once again, thanks for your critical (no pun intended) eye. I want to make these archetypes the best they can be - that is why I placed them on ENWorld. There is always someone here that sees something I/my group doesn't. Cheers.

 

[Connorsrpg]

Other ideas re 10th level. Would "Choose a 2nd Fighting Style OR 2 Advanced maneuvers" be a suitable ability? That way, the player can choose a simpler route (FS) or add more options/complexity with maneuvers.

 

[UnadvisedGoose445]

So here's my thing, and you may disagree with me, and that's totally fine. But... why does this subclass exist? What can the Duelist do that the Battlemaster and Champion cannot? The answer, currently, is pretty much nothing. Why would I play a subclass that is so similar to the other two existing archetypes that offers nothing completely new? Currently, you get the best bits of both subclasses and not only is that not balanced, but it takes away from some of the shtick of the other two. Right now, the Duelist just invalidating them, even if it is "only somewhat".

My idea would be to kind of scrap the idea of maneuvers, and anything the Champion gets as well. Let them be their things. You're a duelist. Do something unique!

Ideas off of the top of my head would include Unarmored Defense (with either Con or maybe even Charisma as the secondary attribute to Dex for the calculation), and stances! Maybe keep Panache points, but use them to enter different stances? One stance could give you a bonus on attacking and moving out of melee range, while increasing move speed a little? One could upgrade damage, or provide a benefit like Reckless Attack from the Barb? Maybe Add Cha mod to attacks for accuracy? But all at the cost of points, or limiting each stance to being once per rest. The more realistic you are with limits, the better the stances themselves could be.

Just my two cents!

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=6801700]UnadvisedGoose445[/MENTION]. Point taken, but I don't see this Duelist as best of both. You really need to have a close read of the actual Techniques to see that. I can see toning back (as stated above), but don't the actual techniques make this guy a little different conceptually? These guys are best with light blades. Oh, and I DO have an Unarmored Defense option that fighters can take.

It is on our Fighter Page, if you are interested: http://connorscampaigns.wikidot.com/5e-fighter.

And yeah, you 'could' take the extra techniques as maneuvers for a battlemaster, but I wanted to design this around a concept AND try new (simpler, no dice) mechanics. But I certainly don't want to start those discussions again. (See links in OP for those discussions that have already taken place).

We like the concept/idea. Just wondering whether you had any feedback on the specific changes I mentioned above.

 

[Connorsrpg]

I have made a few changes. Outlined in the OP in red. What do people think of these?

 

[Connorsrpg]

Made some significant changes to the numbers surrounding PPs and techniques known.

For those interested, the reasoning for these changes can be found on my site's forums: http://connorscampaigns.wikidot.com/forum/t-1190785/fighter-archetype-duelist-house#post-2420203

Basically the duelist is behind the Battle Master, but they gain other features (inc non-combat uses of their PPs). Their bonuses on average are less than a BM. But they can use techniques that don't actually expend PPs.

In a nut shell, I wanted a simpler version of the BM too. These guys have LESS actual maneuvers/techniques to choose from, but end up being able to use their signature moves more. This is also intentional from a 'story' perspective to reflect the specialist moves they have learnt at their unique fighting academy/school/style.