Fighter Feat Suggestion
- Thread starter Mistwell
- Start date
Dr. Zoom
First Post
First of all, your Improved Crit feat should not have been taken before this level, so you can have it now. Take Combat Reflexes for your Ftr6 feat and Iron Will for you regular 9th level feat. You can make more AoO and not worry as much about those crippling mind-affecting spells, which is your major weakness right now.
Baron Von StarBlade
Registered User
Of course its probably too late now, but if I was Barb1/Ftr7 I would have taken a level in Barb so you can pick up the No Flat Footed special ability.
Anyways if you have 2 feats to grab I'd probably get Extra Rage and Combat Reflexes.
Also how did you get Improved Crit? You shouldn't have been able to get it until 8th Level and since you were a Ftr7/Brb1 you wouldn't have a free feat until this level.
Anyways if you have 2 feats to grab I'd probably get Extra Rage and Combat Reflexes.
Also how did you get Improved Crit? You shouldn't have been able to get it until 8th Level and since you were a Ftr7/Brb1 you wouldn't have a free feat until this level.
Thanks Asheron -
.Elder Basalisk - with regard to your post I want to make a couple of points.
Statistically, the only reason AC boosting would not matter is if you would be hit automatically. You are comparing percentages of being hit relative to previous percentages of being hit. While this certainly helps in the analysis, it does not show a whole picture. Really you need to look at percent damage - which is the end point of HP and AC. Take the amount of hit points, normalize them, and then see approximately how much damage a BBEG or underling will do based on percent of successful attacks and subsequent average damage. WHile it is true that if the BBEG has a +22 to hit and the PC had a 22 armor bonus that first hit is always going to hit, it skews the picture to say that a +1 AC doesn't matter because it is insignificant. In fact increasing your AC at higher ACs is more statistically irrelevant than at low ACs because the percent total damage does not change as drastically. The proper place to do percentages based on preexisting battles is battle DURATION. If a battle only lasts half as long as before, that is half the amount of attacks that could have been made in effect halving the damage.
The purpose of the AC pitch was that it will be much more worth while than a few extra hit points. The way to increase his defense can be done one of two ways - offensively or defensively. He has already fairly maxed out his offensive capabilities (at least against one opponent) - not completely so, but at least a lot. He has not at all done anything for his defensive abilities - except to make them worse with raging and charging abilities. Thus to limit the amount of damage taken, you have to focus not decreasing the amount of time your oppoonent has to dish out damage but rather increase your time to take it. This is done with miss percentages, hit points and AC. Miss percentages aren't accessable with feats (except for the blind fight in conjunction with darkness). I already stated in my first post while AC is better than hit points. Therefore AC, seems teh way to go. Moreover, boosting his ACs against AoO might be very useful - keyword might - it depends on how he fights. If he provokes them often, mobility is a great choice.
This is all hypothetical though. So lets take a concrete example. Assume BBEG with 3 attacks at +22/+17/+12. And assume AC of let's say of 25 - this seems fairly reasonable with access to magical items and spells from allies (it is actually on the low side, but forget that for right now). Let's say BBEG deals on average 18 damage a hit. This means that with a full attack the PC will take 18*.9+18*.65+18*.40 = 35.1 damage. Let's say that the PC has 100 hit points. That means that in 3 rounds the PC goes down (all else being equal). Now let's say that the PC takes giant's toughness and now has 9 extra hit points. It now takes an additional round. Let's say he took dodge and armor focus for an additional +3 (I know that the armor focus is a moot point, but just for example). Now the BBEG deals 18*(.75+.5+.25) = 27 per round also making the PC last for another round. This at face value appears equal. However, consider what happens when spells that give you damage reduction, additional levels of hit points, and higher AC's in the future will yield. The lower total damage per round is far better than the extra 9 hit points. Because at another level of hit points you will now last 5 rounds where as the guy who took the hit points will still only last 5 rounds.
Blind fight certainly is not as useful if you get uncanny dodge - I don't know where the player intends to take his PC. If he continues in fighter towards PrC (which is what I imaginied he was doing) and takes no other Barbarian levels, blind fight is a good choice. Remeber he is a 8th level fighter 1st level barbarian. He could always take another level of barbarian but does not have it yet.
Sorry about the Power Critical bit - IDHMBWM - thanks for the clarification.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
That's a good analysis of AC vs. hit points through feats Gaiden and I think it's a good analysis of the game in general for tank types.
However, I think you overestimate the significance of some of the other options. Take your analysis of the character lasting 3 rounds against the BBEG. The BBEG is dealing 18 points of damage a hit on average. That kind of damage output probably means the BBEG is using a greatsword, greataxe, or other damage dealing weapon which probably puts his AC around 26 or so (+3 fullplate, 12+dex, +2 deflection, +1 natural armor or some similar getup--if we toss potions of speed or alliesinto this we could reduce the rest of the treasure or boost his AC to 30 but this is a stand alone BBEG). The PC in question has a raging strength of 28 (decent bull's strength assumed) and let's also assume a +2 greatsword. That adds up to +21/+16 to hit and an average damage of 24 points per hit. Munchkin damage calculator
http://www.public.asu.edu/~tarchon/munchkin.html
estimates that the PC will inflict an average of 32 hp/round on BBEG. Assuming that the BBEG has three levels on the PC, a conservative estimate is that he has about 127 hp or so. By himself, the PC will take 5 rounds to finish off BBEG. That's about seventy hit points of healing the PC needs in order to survive
If I drop that strength to 24 (in the event that the PC has already used his rage for the day), that damage drops to 23/round. The PC now needs 6 rounds in order to finish off BBEG. Which is about 100 points of healing.
In this case, extra rage adds to the character's offensive power and has a similar effect to the combination of Dodge and Armor Focus in terms of damage the character takes.
On the other hand, a character whose regular AC is 34 (like the spellsword in my earlier analysis) can extend his lifespan from 5 rounds to 8 rounds against the same bad guy (although he obviously will be relying on other characters to carry more of the offensive load) by taking the same two feats (or two that also give him +3 AC such as Shield Specialization and Armor Focus). To me, it looks like the higher AC spellsword gets much more milage out of the AC boosting feats than the barbarian.
Obviously that's a very simplified analysis (it doesn't figure in allies on either side) but I think it points to feats for offensive being more effective for this character than feats for defense.
Also, I think it's worth considering how other defensive feats like Close Quarters Fighting will enable the character to decrease the number of rounds he fights by increasing his damage output. At a minimum, the character can expect to get an extra 24 points of damage out of Close Quarters Fighting (the average damage on an AoO). If it also enables hit to avoid being grappled on the next round (not guaranteed since many creatures (dire bears for instance) are capable of two improved grab attacks per round and CQF only helps against the first one--but still likely in many situations), it may well give him an extra 64 points of damage (24 points on round 1 AoO, 24 points on round 2 AoO, plus the difference between the 32 points he regularly deals with a greatsword and the 17 or so he's likely to deal after drawing a dagger to attack his grappler) points of damage. That difference probably amounts to knocking at least two rounds off of the combat--twice as good as the combination of two AC feats. . . although only applicable against certain foes.
It's a very good point about Blindfight--I assumed the character wasn't on a swift prestige class progression plan. If you are and don't want to take another Barbarian level, blindfight is excellent. (All the more so because it opens up new tactical capabilities as well as defensive ones).
However, I think you overestimate the significance of some of the other options. Take your analysis of the character lasting 3 rounds against the BBEG. The BBEG is dealing 18 points of damage a hit on average. That kind of damage output probably means the BBEG is using a greatsword, greataxe, or other damage dealing weapon which probably puts his AC around 26 or so (+3 fullplate, 12+dex, +2 deflection, +1 natural armor or some similar getup--if we toss potions of speed or alliesinto this we could reduce the rest of the treasure or boost his AC to 30 but this is a stand alone BBEG). The PC in question has a raging strength of 28 (decent bull's strength assumed) and let's also assume a +2 greatsword. That adds up to +21/+16 to hit and an average damage of 24 points per hit. Munchkin damage calculator
http://www.public.asu.edu/~tarchon/munchkin.html
estimates that the PC will inflict an average of 32 hp/round on BBEG. Assuming that the BBEG has three levels on the PC, a conservative estimate is that he has about 127 hp or so. By himself, the PC will take 5 rounds to finish off BBEG. That's about seventy hit points of healing the PC needs in order to survive
If I drop that strength to 24 (in the event that the PC has already used his rage for the day), that damage drops to 23/round. The PC now needs 6 rounds in order to finish off BBEG. Which is about 100 points of healing.
In this case, extra rage adds to the character's offensive power and has a similar effect to the combination of Dodge and Armor Focus in terms of damage the character takes.
On the other hand, a character whose regular AC is 34 (like the spellsword in my earlier analysis) can extend his lifespan from 5 rounds to 8 rounds against the same bad guy (although he obviously will be relying on other characters to carry more of the offensive load) by taking the same two feats (or two that also give him +3 AC such as Shield Specialization and Armor Focus). To me, it looks like the higher AC spellsword gets much more milage out of the AC boosting feats than the barbarian.
Obviously that's a very simplified analysis (it doesn't figure in allies on either side) but I think it points to feats for offensive being more effective for this character than feats for defense.
Also, I think it's worth considering how other defensive feats like Close Quarters Fighting will enable the character to decrease the number of rounds he fights by increasing his damage output. At a minimum, the character can expect to get an extra 24 points of damage out of Close Quarters Fighting (the average damage on an AoO). If it also enables hit to avoid being grappled on the next round (not guaranteed since many creatures (dire bears for instance) are capable of two improved grab attacks per round and CQF only helps against the first one--but still likely in many situations), it may well give him an extra 64 points of damage (24 points on round 1 AoO, 24 points on round 2 AoO, plus the difference between the 32 points he regularly deals with a greatsword and the 17 or so he's likely to deal after drawing a dagger to attack his grappler) points of damage. That difference probably amounts to knocking at least two rounds off of the combat--twice as good as the combination of two AC feats. . . although only applicable against certain foes.
It's a very good point about Blindfight--I assumed the character wasn't on a swift prestige class progression plan. If you are and don't want to take another Barbarian level, blindfight is excellent. (All the more so because it opens up new tactical capabilities as well as defensive ones).
Elder-Basilisk,
I really like your analysis. The close quarters combat part really highlights the importance of offense over defense. In general, I have to agree with you that offense is usually better than defense. Also, Dodge is a relatively weak feat because it only gives +1 and only vs. 1 enemy. Also, the armor focus as I pointed out is a moot issue because OA and Rokugan stuff is not allowed. Also, AC is always better gained through spells then anything else. If the half orc can get a cleric to get shielf of faith cast on him with perhaps a protection and prayer spell, the character is much better off than with just the feat. Is the feat AND those spells better than those spells and a different feat - I think you make a good case that that is not the case.
I have to also admit that I am also a bit biased because I love the dodge/mobility/spring attack chain. I guess it depends on what you like. I think out of:
Dodge
Mobility
Improved Bull Rush
Sunder
Improved Sunder
Close Quarters Combat
Combat Reflexes
Expert Tactician
Great Cleave
Extra Rage
Iron Will
All make decent feat choices and it really depends on the style of game and the style of character. For example, Dodge, Mobility and Improved Bull Rush don't make good choices for a character who is not focused on teamwork. Great Cleave and Close Quarters Combat are completely DM-dependent. For defensive feats, Iron Will may be the best choice. I guess the player simply has to choose which feats he wants.
I really like your analysis. The close quarters combat part really highlights the importance of offense over defense. In general, I have to agree with you that offense is usually better than defense. Also, Dodge is a relatively weak feat because it only gives +1 and only vs. 1 enemy. Also, the armor focus as I pointed out is a moot issue because OA and Rokugan stuff is not allowed. Also, AC is always better gained through spells then anything else. If the half orc can get a cleric to get shielf of faith cast on him with perhaps a protection and prayer spell, the character is much better off than with just the feat. Is the feat AND those spells better than those spells and a different feat - I think you make a good case that that is not the case.
I have to also admit that I am also a bit biased because I love the dodge/mobility/spring attack chain. I guess it depends on what you like. I think out of:
Dodge
Mobility
Improved Bull Rush
Sunder
Improved Sunder
Close Quarters Combat
Combat Reflexes
Expert Tactician
Great Cleave
Extra Rage
Iron Will
All make decent feat choices and it really depends on the style of game and the style of character. For example, Dodge, Mobility and Improved Bull Rush don't make good choices for a character who is not focused on teamwork. Great Cleave and Close Quarters Combat are completely DM-dependent. For defensive feats, Iron Will may be the best choice. I guess the player simply has to choose which feats he wants.
daemonslye
First Post
I would vote for:
Close Quarters Combat
Combat Reflexes
1. Can be used while raging;
2. Tentacles, nuff said.
3. Dire grabbing beasties (claw/claw)
Those two are life savers. The sunder chain is
really good if you have a +3 weapon. At your
level, you will find both situations (lots of nasties with
imp. grab [CQC] and high level fighters or
giants [Sunder]) more often.
But again, my vote is for the CQC and CR combo.
Otherwise, if magic is easily accessible, never leave
home without being covered in oil of slipperyness and
go for the sunder feats (because, hey, just buy another
magic sword if you want, right?).
~D
Close Quarters Combat
Combat Reflexes
1. Can be used while raging;
2. Tentacles, nuff said.
3. Dire grabbing beasties (claw/claw)
Those two are life savers. The sunder chain is
really good if you have a +3 weapon. At your
level, you will find both situations (lots of nasties with
imp. grab [CQC] and high level fighters or
giants [Sunder]) more often.
But again, my vote is for the CQC and CR combo.
Otherwise, if magic is easily accessible, never leave
home without being covered in oil of slipperyness and
go for the sunder feats (because, hey, just buy another
magic sword if you want, right?).
~D
the Jester
Legend
Don't forget the virtues of quickdraw. Being able to full attack the first full round of combat can be awesome. It sounds like you're pretty strength-focused, though, so another excellent choice would be extra rage.
Shard O'Glase
First Post
It's not particularly potent but I like destructive rage from MoTW, while ragin any str checks you make to break things get a +8 to the roll. So ragin you have elts say a 26 str or +8, you now would have a +16 for kicking down doors and the like.(also total posible is break dc 36 which I think means ou oculd bust through a massonry wall. HULK SMASH.
