Weiley31
Legend
The OneD&D Fighter Brawler subclass after knocking the Lich prone during the fight and Action Surges.
D&D (2024) Fighter (Playtest 7)
Chaosmancer
Legend
So, a lot of this are things people have already said (because I'm late to the party) but I wanted to get my thoughts down.
Fighter, General
Battle Master
Fighter, General
- I like the fighting style swap, even if I could see it being more often than every level
- I really like them giving a second wind recharge on short rests, but also having more daily uses. Good blend there.
- More Weapon Masteries doesn't solve the problems with Weapon Masteries. They should just be Masteries that you get, then apply to applicable weapons. This was a problem with the previous fighter too, and making Master of Armaments doesn't solve anything either.
- By the time you get Master of Armaments, you have four weapon masteries. You can already drop and grab new weapons to use a different mastery as non-actions on every attack. And there are only 8 masteries, meaning the fight has literally HALF of all available options. Being able to get the other half isn't a big deal.
- Tactical Mind... holy crap! A fighter skill utility feature! And it doesn't expend unless you turn a failure into a success! Pinch me, I'm dreaming. No wait, don't pinch me, I like this dream. I am nervous about the fighter spending a healing resource on this... but technically the fighter had only one second wind before, so this is actually pretty fine.
- I might increase the number of second winds though, keep pace with Proficiency so they have a total of six, since some will be used for skill checks.
- Tactical Shift... torn on it. I like it, but it doesn't feel like it is going to be commonly used. A fighter is not going to want to do this if they aren't missing hp, because the healing is important. It is a nice option though. I may give them the ability to use it once or twice without expending second wind, but that's questionable.
- Indomitable should recharge on a short rest
- Studied attacks is decent. There are questions about the use of common advantage in the new meta of One DnD, but it is likely fine. At the very least, it fits better here than it did on the rogue previously.
Battle Master
- I find myself annoyed, because the maneuver mechanics are the exact same, which means they have the exact same problems. You have between 4 and 6 dice, and yes they recharge on a short rest, but you have to compare that to the number of attacks. Assume a Battlemaster is in two fights, each lasting three rounds, per short rest. This would mean that the Battlemaster is making 6 attacks on the low end, then 12 attacks, and getting up to 24 attacks. And not all maneuvers even utilize attacks, some will be used for skills or situations like Fleet of Foot. And sometimes you action surge, making more attacks! Which all leads to Battle masters running out of gas to DO battle master things VERY VERY fast.
- Relentless helps with this, but it comes at level 15?! That is WAY too late for this to be of any real use.
- I did really like the earlier suggestion of allowing the Battlemaster to use their Int mod in place of a die roll. That could be a very nice ability. Or, I'd suggest letting a Battlemaster regain a single Superiority die at the end of a combat, so at least they always have one available.
- Know your enemy is a largely pointless ability. I'm glad it is a bonus action now I guess? But seriously, this is so worthless for a fighter. You use it and you now know the enemy has resistance to lightning, cold and fire damage. So you look at your steel longsword, and your stone hammer and... do exactly what you were going to do anyways! The only use of this is to learn this information to tell the mages so they can take advantage of it. Sure, a bit of teamwork can be fun, but if I have an ability that is solely used to help spellcaster party members... that's a sucky ability.
- Why for all that is holy are getting d10 and d12 Manuever dice full subclass abilities?
- What designer thought that getting d10's, ie raising your damage by +1, and then d12's, ie raising your damage by +1, was worth a FULL SUBCLASS ABILITY! Look at the Psi Warrior, they get a very similar system, and it doesn't take full subclass abilities
- And better yet, if you move these die increases to just being part of the 3rd level ability, then you open space. Now the INT mod use of manuevers can be here, allowing Relentless to increase it at level 15, making a better progression. And you can have an actual level 18 ability!
- Additionally, manuevers should be able to be changed more often. I like having things like Silver Tongue, but they aren't always useful. Being able to swap a few manuevers per long rest is pretty useful. Heck, let them 1/day swap a manuever as a bonus action. Wizard's can ritually change prepared spells, why can't a fighter swap a maneuver?
- I guess going back to Remarkable Athlete is fine, but it should also apply to Acrobatic (Dex) rolls as well.
- Is their level 10 advantage on one attack per turn really all that useful when in three levels they will have advantage on attacks after missing?
- I really like the removal of the spell school restrictions
- Do we need more spells for them? I'm not sure. The scaling for 1/3 casters is painfully slow
- Why do we never do anything with the War Bond ability? It is just kind of tacked onto the subclass, but you never get any benefits for using your bonded weapon. It is just there to teleport to your hand for a bonus action. It feels like some wasted design space
- One thing that should be allowed is bonding shields as well, and letting you summon two bonded items. There is actually a really fun design in allowing the fighter to use their bonus action to constantly summon and equip a variety of weapons. Especially since for any fighter whose weapons are on their person, it is a non-action.
- This is a great place to say that an Eldritch Knight can use their Bonded weapon as a spellcasting focus. Make this feature MATTER.
- I want War Magic at level 5, since the Bladesinger get it at level 6, but this is still a MASSIVE improvement over the original version.
- Eldritch Strikes is very nice, especially to empower your cantrips. But, maybe instead of "a weapon" it can be your bonded weapon. That will be the weapon you use 99% of the time, so why not have it come back here to give some more flavor and depth to the ability?
- Arcane Charge should be used more often than Action Surging. You are 15th level, and you have a warlock that can teleport basically At-Will. Let them do it INT mod times per short rest, it will be good for them.
- Improved War Magic is tricky. Casting a level 1 or 2 spell is certainly not worth two attacks at level 18. Especially remembering that a single attack will allow them a cantrip, and by level 11 most cantrips are approaching level 1 spells in strength. But I think casting a 3rd or 4th level spell could be worth two attacks.
- Also, here is a fun trick, there isn't a limit on it and nothing talking about War Magic. So you could cast a spell, then cast a cantrip, all with the attack action. Which is pretty fun. And Action Surge can make this weird. With those abilities allowed, this becomes a VERY good ability for the eldritch Knight, who can start throwing around a ton of weak spells.
- The biggest issues with Brawler is the focus is all over the place and it is encroaching heavily on the Monk design space. I want Monks to be able to grapple and auto-deal damage to their grappled opponent. I don't want this fighter dealing better unarmed damage than my monk, who specializes in unarmed damage.
- The focus issue might be worse. You get improved unarmed strike damage, but also the ability swap masteries with improvised weapons which will almost always be less damage. You get the ability to grapple as a bonus action, but that requires a free hand and you get better use out of two-handed improvised weapons, which suddenly start doing the most damage. Then Unarmed Strike damage increases. This subclass needs to pick a lane
- Why is this the only fighter that can swap masteries per attack, and the only fighter than can use two masteries at once?! What about this concept speaks to that?
- I think you have two halves of a good subclass here, but they got stitched together. And frankly? I'd rather have the improvised weapon expert, and move the unarmed stuff to feats so the monks can get things like advantage against grappled opponents and auto-damage to grappled opponents. Give this fighter a d4 unarmed strike, but then focus on "they pick up anything, and it becomes a deadly weapon" and leave the unarmed and grappling to be either non-class specific, or monk subclass specific.
Marandahir
Crown-Forester (he/him)
What Fighting Style would you give the Brawler, regardless of the fix you're proposing? Is there ANY way to make either of these two halves compatible with more than just Defense?
The two halves stitch together definitely seem to me to arise directly from the fact that they were stitched together as a Fighting Style and now they're trying to turn that fighting style into a full subclass (that can only benefit from Defense, Blind Fighting, and Superior Technique).
Agreed -- I'd let fighters access them all from the get go -- no paperwork and I don't see it changing anything from the player's perspective.
Similarly with spell school restrictions. I don't see a point, if it can all be overturned by level 5 and never thought of again.
Disagree. Changing when you level is a good speed, and makes player choices real, wihtout locking in mistakes irrevocably.
I'd be fine with making them half-casters; Ranger and Paladin remain more effective in most cases (and for Arcane Tricksters too, obv). Casting a 4th level spell at level 19 jsut seems so disappointing -- the wizerd could do it at level 7.
When Tasha's made unarmed fighting a Fighting style,, I made a barknuckle battle master hat was great. Never overpowered (he'd have been more effective with weapons), but fun. That would be my preference. All of this can be covered in a fighting style and a feat.
Neonchameleon
Legend
The two halves should stitch together but don't because they aren't leaning into actual improvised weapons. Improvised weapons should give a bonus on first use (either a weapon mastery or simple Advantage) - after that they are no longer improvised and so have a baseline of unarmed damage. And just about all the TCE styles work with the brawler. As does shield-and-fist style.
Chaosmancer
Legend
Well, undo the stitching and the unarmed fighting style becomes viable.
Other than that... Blind Fight could work, Interception and Protection are still viable. Superior Technique is viable.
And then, well, it comes down to a really silly question, but... are Improvised Weapons considered weapons? Because if you argue that an improvised weapon counts as a weapon, then all of the normal fighting styles are viable. They simply state "weapon" not "simple or martial weapon". But that comes with a potential debate over exact definitions. I'd all it for someone proficient in improvised weapons like this, but not for a character who was not proficient.
Chaosmancer
Legend
Agreed
Disagree, because I'm not talking about mistakes.
A common problem you run into with lists of abilities like Manuevers is that some things are always useful, and some things are niche. Something like Precision Attack is always useful, as long as you expect to face combat. But something like Tactical Assessment which provides bonuses to Investigation, Insight and History rolls is far less generally useful. Same with Commanding Presence boosting Persuasion, Intimidation and Performance.
Now, I admit, with the new Tactical Mind ability, these two things can combine to be very reliable, but by allowing a long rest swapping, you don't have to feel like choosing to have good persuasion rolls means you are actively worse at combat. Because you only get three manuevers. And are you going to spend 1/3 of your manuevers on something you might do once or twice a campaign, or something you are going to do multiple times a session.
As for the "making the choices real", I'd ask you if spell selection for clerics, druids and wizards, all who can swap spells from a list per day, are not real choices that feel meaningful? I've never felt those choices were not real or weighty, so I don't see why doing the same here would make the choices meaningless.
Yeah, I'm not sure. A half-caster progression isn't terrible, and while it is stronger... Paladins, Rangers, and Artificers are all treated as equally melee capable as Fighters and Barbarians, and it does not take much of anything to get the "full martial package" so maybe increasing them to half casters just makes sense.
I think I agree.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
They can benefit from nearly all of the fighting styles.
A chair leg in one hand is a one-handed weapon. A ladder is a “weapon used in two hands”.
TWF relies on a DM may I, so don’t take it without a good talk with your DM.
Mprorection requires a shield, archery is self explanatory.
Haven’t looked at the Tasha’s options.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Well, no: Fighters and Barbarians deal more damge over a day, without needing to expend a resource.
Chaosmancer
Legend
Well... no, actually.
Barbarians are constantly expending a resource to deal their damage. Without Rage they just have... extra attack. Sure, you might be able to count Reckless attack, but the downside of reckless exists because of rage giving resistance to damage, to encourage attacks against them. Ignoring Rage and its benefits but counting Reckless attack places them in a bizarrely fragile state.
And fighters have resources too. Action surge for one. And most fighter subclasses use resources.
So, if you look at 1st through 10th level, most fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers and Battlesmith/Armorer Artificers are just using Extra attack. They all CAN expend resources to do more, from various places, and out of all of them the Fighter actually has the least amount of resources to spend to catch up.
Now, once you hit level 11, a few things change and diverge, but level 11 is just a tremendous problem for most of the martial classes at this point.
