D&D (2024) Fighter (Playtest 7)

[mellored]

Would putting Superior Technique in the PHB suffice?

I mean, I want a full martial support class, with several sub classes.

But getting commanders strike at-will at level 1, picking up battlemaster at 3 for some short rest dice, inspiring leader at 4, Martial Adept at 6 for a second at-will maneuver, inspiring leader at 8, healer at 12, a third at-will die at 15...
Probably bard 5 for the remaining levels to get more dice to hand out.

That's not too far off.

Homebrew that I could give action surge and second wind to allies, and it would probably pass.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I mean, I want a full martial support class, with several sub classes.

There aren't even full support classes as casters - they're also blasters/controllers/strikers/out-of-combat-problem-solvers/etc...

A "full martial support" 5e class would still be a trap for the party that went with it instead of Cleric or Bard, for instance.

 

[mellored]

There aren't even full support classes as casters - they're also blasters/controllers/strikers/out-of-combat-problem-solvers/etc...

You can make a pacifist cleric or non-damaging bard.
Control is basically support.
And everyone should have our of combat options.

But sure. If I can play a martial support, I'll be satisfied. (Still might complain, just a little).

So I'll keep working on making lazylord fighter happen.
And it would be cool if the ranger or others could benefit from more support options as well (i.e. fighting style, feat).

So a slightly new suggestion.

Fighting Style: Team Work
You gain the Commander's Strike maneuver. You can use it without expending a Superiority Die and adding no damage on a hit.

Martial Adept (same)
You learn 2 maneuver from the battlemaster list.
Once per turn, when you use a Maneuver, you can use your Intelligence modifier as the die roll instead of expending a Superiority Die.
You can take this feat multiple times.

Cooperation Mastery (optional, replaces Weapon Mastery and Master of Armaments)
*When you use second wind, and ally can gain those hit points instead of you.
*When an ally takes an action, you can use your reaction and expending your action surge. The ally can then take another action except a Magic action.
*At level 9, when you use Indomitable, each creature you choose who also failed the save against the same effect can reroll it with a bonus. If you do, the bonus is reduced to half your fighter level.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I don’t like the Brawler subclass.

I thought I did, but then realised it only works with one default Fighting Style (Defense); is redundant with one Tasha’s Style (Unarmed Fighting — as it is a fighting style feat turned into a whole subclass tree); and only works with two other Tasha’s Styles (Superior Technique and Blind Fighting).

This says to me that it’s really not a full subclass, or if they want it to be, they need to include more than the default 6 Fighting Styles to give them at least some non-Defense options that aren’t traps.

I know at every level I can swap out my Style, so that prevents me from taking say, Archery, and then Brawler, only to realise I don’t get the Archery bonus on thrown improvised weapons, but all of the other PHB.24 subclasses have the full gamut of choice regarding Fighting Styles.

This is unlike the situation with Cleric, where you’d be really weird to choose Thaumaturge Order and then War Domain, as War Domain really wants you to be proficient with Martial Weapons and up on the front line, given that that choice is mitigated by having a species or background or feat that provides training with weapons and armor.

But this choice literally leaves you with only Defense as a viable option in PHB-only play. That would be fine if this was the point and click Fighter Subclass, but this is the Brawler, not the Champion!

FYI, I LOVE the Weapon Mastery System and beyond this one subclass issue, I think 90% of the issues with the Fighter class are mitigated by this playtest. Champion vs Battle Master even feel thematically unique now!

if I’m a Battle Master, I now have maneuvers, weapon masteries, feats, and fighting style features all as dial choices of what to do at any given time, beyond just point and click or use skill check and ask “DM May I?”! This is just about approaching the complexity of a caster if I want it to be, and that’s great. Even the Champion can be complex with weapon masteries and feat choices and fighting styles.

I used to think all Fighters needed maneuvers, but this is a great new dial that not only gives all Fighters something without taking it away from Battle Masters, but also gives it to a lesser extent to all other Martials (even the ones who would be unbalanced if given Fighting Styles as I thought they should — why is Martial Arts not a fighting style, Monk? — Because if it is then I might not focus on unarmed strikes… Why don’t you have a fighting style, Barbarian? Because I’m a barbarian, look at my giant beard!

It works well. Just send Brawler back to the Fighting Style school and give us a different Fighter subclass for slot 4, or allow the weapon-based fighting styles to work with unarmed strikes and improvised weapons!

I mostly agree, to me the biggest issue with the Brawler is that is it so focused on improvised weapons that it does not fit well with its base class.
I think that if it has grappling and crowd control options that synergized with weapons (improvised or other) it would be better and more thematically a fighter.

 

[Pauln6]

You can make a pacifist cleric or non-damaging bard.
Control is basically support.
And everyone should have our of combat options.

But sure. If I can play a martial support, I'll be satisfied. (Still might complain, just a little).

So I'll keep working on making lazylord fighter happen.
And it would be cool if the ranger or others could benefit from more support options as well (i.e. fighting style, feat).

So a slightly new suggestion.

Fighting Style: Team Work
You gain the Commander's Strike maneuver. You can use it without expending a Superiority Die and adding no damage on a hit.

Martial Adept (same)
You learn 2 maneuver from the battlemaster list.
Once per turn, when you use a Maneuver, you can use your Intelligence modifier as the die roll instead of expending a Superiority Die.
You can take this feat multiple times.

Cooperation Mastery (optional, replaces Weapon Mastery and Master of Armaments)
*When you use second wind, and ally can gain those hit points instead of you.
*When an ally takes an action, you can use your reaction and expending your action surge. The ally can then take another action except a Magic action.
*At level 9, when you use Indomitable, each creature you choose who also failed the save against the same effect can reroll it with a bonus. If you do, the bonus is reduced to half your fighter level.

I've always felt that the Banneret just needs some manoeuvre support to be a passable warlord. If Second Wind is to be linked to new options, then attaching some warlord style options into the subclass could plug the gaps.

For the above, I would just put the teamwork fighting style as an optional class feature. At Level 3, grant 2 1d6 superiority dice and a choice of more limited warlord style manoeuvres. Instead of proficiency in Persuasion, grant 2 1d6 superiority dice and access to the skill-related manoeuvres.

There are quite a few fan created warlord classes out there, built around the Battlemasater chassis. An alternative lazylord might be a mastermind rogue with some co-operative cunning strike options?

 

[WanderingMystic]

The brawler would work better as a barbarian subclass than a fighter one and to be honest just doesn't work.

 

[Kinematics]

Wanted to look at how some of the features affect damage.

Here's a chart of various Champion builds:

For now, this is just the Champion. The Battle Master chart mostly just bumps everything up a little bit.

Consistency

Any melee weapon you pick is going to have very similar damage profiles, as seen above.

Note: The maul doesn't have any weapon mastery modifications added. Topple is difficult to model. After level 9, you could change it to various other options, and Graze would actually be a nice buff in a comparison where the base accuracy is assumed to be 60%. Accounting for those should put it on par with or slightly above the PAM build.

The main exception is for ranged attacks. The longbow above illustrates that. This is largely due to the fact that there aren't really any damage-boosting feats for ranged attacks. At best you can use Great Weapon Master for the extra Proficiency Bonus damage using a heavy weapon. (The above chart does not include GWM for the longbow. It would provide a mild boost, but still be noticeably below the other weapons.)

The longbow is at roughly the same level as Treantmonk's baseline Eldritch Blast; maybe even a touch below it. On the other hand, being able to shoot from hundreds of feet away, and slowing (or pushing) the target at the same time, means it doesn't have to be super powerful to be effective.

Studied Attacks

I added Studied Attacks at level 13, but it's not as impactful as I would have expected. But that's partly because of the builds I'm using.

With Studied Attacks, if you're using a Vex weapon you pretty much have perma-advantage — either Vex gives you advantage when you hit, or Studied Attacks gives you advantage when you miss. More so on a Champion because you can use Heroic Advantage to ensure you still have advantage when switching targets.

However, because Vex already gives you advantage a lot of the time, the addition of Studied Attacks to the TWF and Rapier builds isn't very noticeable.

Meanwhile, the PAM build gives you Graze. Getting advantage raises your effective accuracy, which reduces how much Graze adds to your damage. That means you gain less from Studied Attacks than you might expect because it's cutting into the damage you would have gotten from Graze.

And for longbow, the Archery fighting style raises your accuracy, which reduces the value of Studied Attacks because you're not missing as often.

The maul gets the most out of Studied Attacks, of those listed. You can see it spike well above TWF at level 13, after being on par at level 12.

 

[Minigiant]

I also feel like a Brawler should have more of a 'wrasslin' component. You should get to grapple increasingly larger things and then do things with that grapple like suplex or noogie.

People might be more excited to hit the lich with the Rock's move than an actual rock.

 

[Clint_L]

The fighter still lacks the conceptual scaling of the casters. A level 17 wizard is conceptually much more than a level 9 wizard. A level 17 fighter is someone who does the exact same things as a level 9 fighter but a bit better.

A bit better? That word is doing a lot of work here.

And how is a level 17 wizard "conceptually" different from a level 9 wizard? The concept is identical: they cast spells using spell slots. I guess their three level 6-9 spells are a bit better but how is the concept changed? They basically are a level 9 wizard, plus the spell slots and a couple class/subclass features, feats, or ASIs.

 

[Neonchameleon]

A bit better? That word is doing a lot of work here.

The fighters are doing for practical purposes the same thing. They are swinging their weapons harder and faster. But doing the same thing.

And how is a level 17 wizard "conceptually" different from a level 9 wizard? The concept is identical: they cast spells using spell slots. I guess their three level 6-9 spells are a bit better but how is the concept changed? They basically are a level 9 wizard, plus the spell slots and a couple class/subclass features, feats, or ASIs.

Because every single spell level is exponentially more influential than the previous one. True Polymorph gives what are for practical purposes permanent changes. Wish is wish. Every single spell a wizard gets is a class feature. And one of escalating power. You wouldn't allow a level 9 wizard to cast Shapechange daily.

Meanwhile the 2014 base fighter class does not get one single feature from levels 12-19 that isn't either (a) a duplicate of something they had earlier (e.g. Action Surge, Indomitable) or (b) something that they could have picked at a lower level but wasn't good enough for them to take (e.g. a new feat) (or (c) from the subclass not the base class).