D&D (2024) Fighter (Playtest 7)

[Marandahir]

They can benefit from nearly all of the fighting styles.

A chair leg in one hand is a one-handed weapon. A ladder is a “weapon used in two hands”.

TWF relies on a DM may I, so don’t take it without a good talk with your DM.
Mprorection requires a shield, archery is self explanatory.

Haven’t looked at the Tasha’s options.

Not according to RAI. An Improvised weapon is not a Melee nor a Ranged weapon. It can be used to make melee or ranged weapon attacks, but as with unarmed strikes it doesn't gain proficiency bonus and isn't a weapon itself.

You might play DM-May-I to ask the DM to treat the chair leg AS a club to gain proficiency, and I'd suggest in those cases you'd be able to take advantage of archery, TWF, GWF, Duelling, etc.

But even a ranged weapon being improvised to make melee attacks (i.e., hitting you on the head with my crossbow) is not a melee weapon, it's an improvised weapon used to make melee attacks, and vice versa for a melee weapon thrown as if it were a ranged weapon.

Protection is no good for the Brawler because a Shield takes away your unarmed expert feature.

Interception requires a shield or a simple or martial weapon, so no go with improvised weapons and unarmed strikes.

Unarmed fighting is redundant as all its benefits are subclass features here.

Surprisingly, I think Thrown Weapon Fighting works with the Brawler, as it doesn't specify melee or ranged weapon nor martial nor simple weapon, just a thrown weapon (which improvised weapons can be). So I guess that's a grand total of 4 choices for the Brawler: Defense, Thrown Weapon Fighting, Superior Technique, and Blind Fighting. And all save Defense require buying an additional book.

That's what I mean. As you said in your post, this subclass seems to be mechanically at odds with the themes it's trying to represent.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not according to RAI. An Improvised weapon is not a Melee nor a Ranged weapon. It can be used to make melee or ranged weapon attacks, but as with unarmed strikes it doesn't gain proficiency bonus and isn't a weapon itself.

You gain proficiency as part of the subclass my dude.

And RAW is what matters.

Protection is no good for the Brawler because a Shield takes away your unarmed expert feature.

Yes? I addressed that.

Surprisingly, I think Thrown Weapon Fighting works with the Brawler, as it doesn't specify melee or ranged weapon nor martial nor simple weapon, just a thrown weapon (which improvised weapons can be). So I guess that's a grand total of 4 choices for the Brawler: Defense, Thrown Weapon Fighting, Superior Technique, and Blind Fighting. And all save Defense require buying an additional book.

More like, if your DM is reading sage advice and being a pedant, and assuming the 2024 phb doesn’t clarify the rules to work more explicitly here, you have limited fighting style options that easily coincide with your improvised weapon use.

Sounds like the useful feedback is “make sure this and the weapon section of the equipment chapter is worded such that things like dueling fighting style explicitly work”.
Not “This is bad because previously spoken on RAI says it isn’t supposed to work in the way that would make the subclass more playable than the alternative, so it’s a bad subclass that is at odds with itself”.

That's what I mean. As you said in your post, this subclass seems to be mechanically at odds with the themes it's trying to represent.

I definitely didn’t say that. You’re combining me with another poster.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Even if they make sure to specify that improvised weapons work with fighting styles I feel like the Brawler still doesn't work. The unarmed fighting aspects mainly work with the defense fighting style and not the other options. The improvised weapon focuses thematically is about you using whatever you have near by so at sometimes you might be dual welding, sometimes a two handed sometimes just a single one handed or throwing, you are not supposed to be a master of one specific type of weaponry. It also just feels like it goes against the other fighter subclasses in general, it's like having an archer subclass, or a dual weapon welder subclass, unarmed/improvised fighting feels like a fighting style not a subclass. It also doesn't synergize with tavern brawler feat which it feels like it should (but to me that is a tavern brawler problem).

I would prefer the Rune Knight or a revamped Banneret subclass, maybe even a revamped Samurai with a new name.

I love the concept of an unarmed or improvised weapon pc but I just don't think this subclass is it. I have said before the barbarian lands itself better to the unarmed brawler subclass due to no fighting style to conflict with already having an unarmored ability and thematics of a raging individual who just grabs whatever is around to attack it's foes.

 

[Kinematics]

Champion

• I guess going back to Remarkable Athlete is fine, but it should also apply to Acrobatic (Dex) rolls as well.
• Is their level 10 advantage on one attack per turn really all that useful when in three levels they will have advantage on attacks after missing?

On the advantage question, comparing various scenarios. I'll use 3 attacks per round (level 11), since the Studies Attacks comparison will be at level 13. I'll also assume a loop of attacks against the same target, to figure out long-term averages. I'll consider a 60% hit rate and an 80% hit rate.

For damage purposes, I'll use a 1d10 weapon with 20 Str, for 10.5 base damage, and a 16 damage crit.

Baseline: No advantage on any attack. Average damage per attack will be 6.85 at 60%, or 8.95 at 80%. Damage per round: 20.55 - 26.85

Heroic Warrior: Advantage on one attack per round. Other attacks are the same as baseline. An average of 1 attack with advantage per round. Advantage damage will be 9.865 - 11.125, for a total of 23.57 - 29.03 per round. Net gain of 14.7% - 8.1% per round over baseline.

Studied Attacks: Gain advantage if the previous attack missed. Long term average hit rate increases from 60% to 67.7% (having advantage 32% of the time), and from 80% to 82.8% (having advantage 17% of the time). An average of 0.96 - 0.51 attacks with advantage each round. Average damage per attack will be 7.82 - 9.32, with total damage of 23.46 - 27.96 per round. Net gain of 14.2% - 4.1% per round.

Heroic Warrior + Studied Attacks: Use the guaranteed advantage if the previous attack hit (once only). Otherwise depend on Studied Attacks. One attack each round is guaranteed to be with advantage. The attack after that will be low, and the attack after that will be typical. An average of 1.52 - 1.23 attacks with advantage each round. Average damage per round is 25.14 - 29.53. Net gain of 22% - 10%.

Summary

So at higher base accuracy (80%), Studied Attacks is a tiny gain in overall damage (under 2%) compared to starting with Heroic Warrior. At lower base accuracy (60%), it's a bit more noticeable (7%).

From the other direction, Heroic Warrior is a decent boost regardless of accuracy, even when starting with Studied Attacks, providing an improvement of 8%-6%.

So on their own, Heroic Warrior and Studied Attacks are reasonable (if modest) improvements, particularly helping mitigate low accuracy situations. Put together, though, there's less total benefit.

However Heroic Warrior can give advantage even when switching targets (unlike Vex and Studied Attacks), and can be used a bit more tactically, to get advantage when you otherwise wouldn't have it. So it's still useful even without any synergy.

 

[Marandahir]

You gain proficiency as part of the subclass my dude.

And RAW is what matters.

Yes? I addressed that.

More like, if your DM is reading sage advice and being a pedant, and assuming the 2024 phb doesn’t clarify the rules to work more explicitly here, you have limited fighting style options that easily coincide with your improvised weapon use.

Sounds like the useful feedback is “make sure this and the weapon section of the equipment chapter is worded such that things like dueling fighting style explicitly work”.
Not “This is bad because previously spoken on RAI says it isn’t supposed to work in the way that would make the subclass more playable than the alternative, so it’s a bad subclass that is at odds with itself”.

I definitely didn’t say that. You’re combining me with another poster.

Sorry, I was tired and saw that you responded to my response to them. I apologize!

 

[Kinematics]

So I never put the Brawler into my spreadsheet, as it just felt clunky, and I wasn't sure how to frame it. However, I saw an interesting idea mentioned as a side effect of the cantrip updates, and went back to look at the Brawler in terms of damage.

First, a feature I'd missed (or forgot) was that at level 15 you can add your proficiency bonus to your attack damage. This isn't limited to once per round, so adds up to a substantial amount of extra damage. You start with +5 damage per hit, and it goes up to +6 at level 17.

Now, if you only included that, but were using a 1d6 one-handed improvised weapon, that would only bring you up to par with the other subclasses at level 15+. However an interesting combo shows up if you grab Magic Initiate at level 1, taking Shillelagh.

Shillelagh works on clubs and quarterstaffs. An improvised weapon that is similar to an existing weapon can be treated as that weapon. That means you can Shillelagh your broken chair leg or torch or whatever.

Further, the damage die of the Shillelagh'd weapon scales with the cantrip level. It starts at a d8 at level 1, then a d10 at level 5, a d12 at level 11, and 2d6 at level 17. This gives you the higher damage dice you want without having to argue with the DM over whatever random object you pick up. As long as it's close enough to a club, you're good to go. (And if the target resists bludgeoning damage, Shillelagh lets you use force damage.)

Since you can always use Vex as the weapon mastery for a one-handed improvised weapon, that's what I chose. At level 13+, with Studied Attack, you get almost permanent advantage, aside from switching targets. When you can use a second weapon mastery on each attack, I'd probably add Sap to give whoever I hit disadvantage as well. (And might as well toss in Slow if you hit more than once.)

Doing this puts you on par with other one-handed subclass choices prior to level 15, but surpasses even a PAM BM build at levels 15+. It's over 20% ahead at level 20.

Here's a chart:

This looks like it's perfectly viable for an improvised weapon focus early on, switching to quite powerful at high levels.

This doesn't really get into the unarmed strikes and grappling side. Using a one-handed weapon does leave a hand free to grapple a creature, which you can do as a bonus action starting at level 7, and that creature automatically takes another 1d6 damage each round for an extra little bit of bonus damage. However it's more complicated to use unarmed fighting in general, and hard to know how to mix it with the improvised weapons side.

Still, if the improvised weapons side is strong enough to stand on its own, the unarmed fighting side can just act as a flavorful bonus.

Thoughts?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Shillelagh works on clubs and quarterstaffs. An improvised weapon that is similar to an existing weapon can be treated as that weapon. That means you can Shillelagh your broken chair leg or torch or whatever.

This is highly dubious (and an obvious attempt to have your cake and eat it), and definitely requires a friendly DM. If it's clublike enough to shillelagh then it's clublike enough to not be treated as an improvised weapon.

This looks like it's perfectly viable for an improvised weapon focus early on, switching to quite powerful at high levels.

It also completely messes up the subclass fantasy for me. You're not using an improvised weapon - just a slightly weird one that you carry and wield as if it's a normal weapon. At that point the only purpose of the subclass is the unarmed attacks.

 

[Kinematics]

This is highly dubious (and an obvious attempt to have your cake and eat it), and definitely requires a friendly DM. If it's clublike enough to shillelagh then it's clublike enough to not be treated as an improvised weapon.

Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.

Granted, it's still up to the DM. However this basic condition in the rules is why you can have anything other than the default damage dice at all (1d4), and the premise for why using improvised weapons can be considered anything above garbage tier in the first place (part of the original argument over the Brawler).

Being able to treat an object as a particular weapon does not mean it's not still an improvised weapon. It just means you get to use things that depend on the mimicked weapon type, such as damage type, damage dice, or, in this case, casting limitations.

(That said, I totally understand the argument that this shouldn't be allowed. I'm just trying to support the case that this seems like an entirely legitimate use case.)

It also completely messes up the subclass fantasy for me. You're not using an improvised weapon - just a slightly weird one that you carry and wield as if it's a normal weapon. At that point the only purpose of the subclass is the unarmed attacks.

This part confuses me. It seems like this does exactly the opposite. Part of the original arguments over the Brawler were that you'd have to find some improvised weapon that your DM would allow does good damage, and then you'd just carry that with you because you could never be guaranteed a chance to find something similar in any other location. So you'd end up not actually improvising much at all.

With the cantrip, you are completely free of that constraint, and you can pick up almost anything, anywhere, that, as long as it could be considered a club or a large stick (quarterstaff) allows you to deal the full damage of a normal weapon. It may not work with chains or ladders or a thrown rock, but it adapts well to a very large swathe of what you might pick up (a mop, a torch, a broken chair leg, a tree branch, a wine bottle, etc), so you're most definitely staying within the fantasy of using improvised weapons. You're just using the cantrip to empower them, and skip the argument with the DM every time you pick up something new.

It's also like a better scaled version of the Improvised Specialist feature (lvl 15), which raises the die size of all your two-handed weapons to a d12, so there's a degree of similarity already in place. I wouldn't be averse to it being a built-in feature for the class, rather than a cantrip (even if including the limit to club or quarterstaff-like improvised weapons). It does make me question whether the subclass should retain the boost to damage by proficiency bonus at level 15, though, as that feels like it gets a bit overpowered.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So I never put the Brawler into my spreadsheet, as it just felt clunky, and I wasn't sure how to frame it. However, I saw an interesting idea mentioned as a side effect of the cantrip updates, and went back to look at the Brawler in terms of damage.

First, a feature I'd missed (or forgot) was that at level 15 you can add your proficiency bonus to your attack damage. This isn't limited to once per round, so adds up to a substantial amount of extra damage. You start with +5 damage per hit, and it goes up to +6 at level 17.

Thank you for the chart.
But I have to rant about abilities like that where you start adding proficiency bonus at levels where it is already +5.
Such abilities should best be available before level 5. So that they can actually scale.
Why not just add a flat +5 to damage at that level. Or +con to damage or whatever. Gaining proficiency bonus at that level is just weird.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Granted, it's still up to the DM. However this basic condition in the rules is why you can have anything other than the default damage dice at all (1d4), and the premise for why using improvised weapons can be considered anything above garbage tier in the first place (part of the original argument over the Brawler).

That's a problem the brawler class needs to fix. I've suggested that improvised weapons in the hands of a brawler use the brawler's unarmed damage - but get a one use bonus the first time you use a specific object type you didn't bring into the scene.

This part confuses me. It seems like this does exactly the opposite. Part of the original arguments over the Brawler were that you'd have to find some improvised weapon that your DM would allow does good damage, and then you'd just carry that with you because you could never be guaranteed a chance to find something similar in any other location. So you'd end up not actually improvising much at all.

Which is part of why I've suggested that improvised damage is based on unarmed damage - but you get a bonus the first time you use something. Your baseline only lags a hair behind the champion (if you have enough unarmed damage) so if you don't get anything you aren't too ineffective.

With the cantrip, you are completely free of that constraint, and you can pick up almost anything, anywhere, that, as long as it could be considered a club or a large stick (quarterstaff) allows you to deal the full damage of a normal weapon. It may not work with chains or ladders or a thrown rock, but it adapts well to a very large swathe of what you might pick up (a mop, a torch, a broken chair leg, a tree branch, a wine bottle, etc), so you're most definitely staying within the fantasy of using improvised weapons. You're just using the cantrip to empower them, and skip the argument with the DM every time you pick up something new.

No need to argue if the brawler's damage with improvised weapons is based on the brawler's unarmed damage type.

It's also like a better scaled version of the Improvised Specialist feature (lvl 15), which raises the die size of all your two-handed weapons to a d12, so there's a degree of similarity already in place. I wouldn't be averse to it being a built-in feature for the class, rather than a cantrip (even if including the limit to club or quarterstaff-like improvised weapons). It does make me question whether the subclass should retain the boost to damage by proficiency bonus at level 15, though, as that feels like it gets a bit overpowered.

I can see what you are trying to do - and it would be absolutely a cool hack if something as half-baked as that first draft brawler reached publication. But for playtesting it's the sort of thing I think should be banned.