Fighter 'spells'

[reapersaurus]

After getting fed up with the amounts of No-Save, ranged, multiple-target damage that mages are apparently supposed to be able to dish out, as well as the sneak-attack damage that a 'non-combat class' (rogues) can do, I believe it's time for fighter-types to be able to have the same damage-dealing capability. Prime justification for this is that most fighter-types can not do anything outside of combat. They should be the best in the combat scene, and they aren't. (Obviously IMO)
A simple Scorching Ray, or fireball, by a generalist caster does more damage than a non-powergamed fighter-type can hope to do.
A sneak attack can do more damage than a general fighter type can do, as well.

New Feat type: Heroic Feats

Heroic Feats are fueled by BAB, and can only be taken if the character does not have any primary spellcaster class levels (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard), nor any sneak attack ability (Rogue, Assassin).

Heroic Strike:
This feat allows for multiple abilities, depending on the BAB of the character. Its effect scales, as spells do, as long as it is taken once each 3 levels. (this is just a substitute for breaking up the feat into a feat chain)
- Saves are based off of either STR or DEX, whichever is higher.
- Ranges are based off BAB (i.e. Close range is 25 feet + 5 ft per BAB)
- These attacks are standard actions, and can not be used as part of a full attack action (i.e. no iterative Heroic Strikes).
- These attacks can only be done a number of times equal to BAB divided by their rating (rounded UP). Extra attacks are granted the same way that mages get extra bonus spells (using DEX or STR, whichever's higher).

* Heroic Missiles allows for a 1d4+1 'unerring strike' missile, within Medium range, no save. For every 2 BAB past 1, you get another missile (max 5). Rating 1
* Heroic Ray allows for 4d6 ray to hit a target within Close range (requires ranged touch attack). Additional rays at 7 BAB and 11 BAB. No save. Min BAB 3. Rating 2
* Heroic Bolts allows for a 4d6 bolt, one for every 4 full BAB. (i.e. first Bolt at 4 BAB, 2nd at 8) Ranged touch attack required, Reflex save for half, Medium range. Rating 3
* Heroic Burst allows for a 1d6 per BAB blast of energy to strike a 20-ft radius area, anywhere within Long range of the hero. Max damage of 10d6. Reflex save for half. Rating 3

That should be the gist of it.

 

[Technik4]

???

Why can fighters do so little outside of combat? Usually our fighters are the ones organizing the camp, structuring the line-up of the party, and even using actions during battle giving advice on what to do.

If a fighter wants to fight at range...there are bows which fill the bill nicely. You are trying to take away some of what wizards and sorcerors give up so much to get, their magic.

As for rogues/assasins and sneak attack being too powerful, I think thats silly also. Sneak Attack is hard to get every round, or on full-attacks as it usually places the rogue in quite a bit of danger. While the fighter has the AC and HP to sustain rounds of combat in a monster's face, the rogue certainly does not.

Do you really find fighters so weak?

Technik

 

[Saeviomagy]

After getting fed up with the amounts of No-Save, ranged, multiple-target damage that mages are apparently supposed to be able to dish out, as well as the sneak-attack damage that a 'non-combat class' (rogues) can do, I believe it's time for fighter-types to be able to have the same damage-dealing capability. Prime justification for this is that most fighter-types can not do anything outside of combat. They should be the best in the combat scene, and they aren't. (Obviously IMO)
A simple Scorching Ray, or fireball, by a generalist caster does more damage than a non-powergamed fighter-type can hope to do.
A sneak attack can do more damage than a general fighter type can do, as well.

New Feat type: Heroic Feats

Heroic Feats are fueled by BAB, and can only be taken if the character does not have any primary spellcaster class levels (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard), nor any sneak attack ability (Rogue, Assassin).

Heroic Strike:
This feat allows for multiple abilities, depending on the BAB of the character. Its effect scales, as spells do, as long as it is taken once each 3 levels. (this is just a substitute for breaking up the feat into a feat chain)
- Saves are based off of either STR or DEX, whichever is higher.
- Ranges are based off BAB (i.e. Close range is 25 feet + 5 ft per BAB)
- These attacks are standard actions, and can not be used as part of a full attack action (i.e. no iterative Heroic Strikes).
- These attacks can only be done a number of times equal to BAB divided by their rating (rounded UP). Extra attacks are granted the same way that mages get extra bonus spells (using DEX or STR, whichever's higher).

* Heroic Missiles allows for a 1d4+1 'unerring strike' missile, within Medium range, no save. For every 2 BAB past 1, you get another missile (max 5). Rating 1
* Heroic Ray allows for 4d6 ray to hit a target within Close range (requires ranged touch attack). Additional rays at 7 BAB and 11 BAB. No save. Min BAB 3. Rating 2
* Heroic Bolts allows for a 4d6 bolt, one for every 4 full BAB. (i.e. first Bolt at 4 BAB, 2nd at 8) Ranged touch attack required, Reflex save for half, Medium range. Rating 3
* Heroic Burst allows for a 1d6 per BAB blast of energy to strike a 20-ft radius area, anywhere within Long range of the hero. Max damage of 10d6. Reflex save for half. Rating 3

That should be the gist of it.

Wow. You mean a barbarian gets some freebie magic AS WELL AS being useful outside of combat! Coolies. Shame it's utterly flavourless and unjustified though.

 

[DiFier]

If you want to multiclass into fighter/wizard or fighter/sorecer then do so. This feat is way too powerful. What about arcane spell failure? you are gaining the power of a wizard or sorecer with the ability to ignore Spell failure

I have less munchkin way for you to do this. Make a spellsword with equal levels of fighter and wizard when he qualifies for the PRC.

If a wizard were to take something like martial weapon proficency and then attack with a longsword, he doesn't get to use his Intelligence as the bonus to attack (unless he takes the feat from quin wiz that allows 1 attack to have the bonus from int rather than str) he still has to use str (or perhaps dex but he doesn't have alot of feats to use up here) and he's already wasted 2 to be able to weild a long sword. [or maybe 1 I don't remember if simple weapon prof is a requirement for marital w.p.]

 

[paulewaug]

That is an interesting idea, although if are unhappy with the true/pure Fighter maybe working these "spells" a lot more closely into weapon based Fighter Bonus feats would work out a bit better?

Personally I see Fighters as the biggest market for strong Magic Items.
I know some people are unhappy that they seem to "need magic" items to be effective but that is how they are.
Arthur and Excalibur, Thor and Mjolnir (sic?), Samurai Jack and his magic Katana , etc.

Personally I don't feel that Fighters are any less useful than a Sorcerer carrying a "combat load" of spells. Or a Monk I guess either-
They can still do things. They should be high profile and as they get higher in levels they should be the "Glory Boys" of the group.
Arcane Casters can be creepy, Divine Casters can be..overbearing, Rogues are shifty (thief mode) or full of Wind (as a "Rogue") Bards are flashy and talk of Other peoples greatness (nor do they have what it takes to claim to be a mightier Spell caster or Warrior compared to one of equal level), Rangers are loners, But the Fighter is the Professional Sportsman of the "common folk." It is them that most people would normally gravitate towards.

I think that maybe using the "bolt feats" as an "Add-on" to a Missile Weapon attack would be kind of cool. Like a Heroic Enhancement ability.


As an aside and of no real use to this topic but along the heading of "Fighter Spells" I am playing a Ranger-Fighter in a current campaign involving 4 pcs. We have a Wizard and a Cleric and at the start of every "day" the dms ask for "spells lists" I always right up my "spell list" and give it to him. He seems to think is amusing, or at least tolerates it fairly well. My list is "Power Attack" and "Cleave" he he...I often forget to use powerattack and say "Aw I should have used a spell!"
Just a little story, thanks for your time!

 

[Elric]

Can you use these feats while making duel-wielding shield charges?

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Taking cue from another poster a while back, a fighter's 'spells' already exist in the game.

+1 Flaming Burst Greatsword=Fireball
Frostbrand=Cone of Cold
+2 Shocking Rapier=Lightning Bolt

voila!

 

[seasong]

Reapersaurus, I can't believe you're posting this while your character is doing 200+ points of damage in a single round and simultaneously knocking your opponent prone, after a 100+ ft charge... in an antimagic field.



Seriously, I don't think fighters are particularly underpowered. In the Monday game I play in, we've reached 9th level, and I'm still consistently whupping everyone's kill count. As an archer, my average damage hovers around 13-14 per hit, and I hit 80% of the time, and I get three shots per round... 32.4 avg dmg per round ain't shabby, and I can do it for a lot longer than the mage can. That's if I don't switch to greatsword and wade in - less average damage, but no ammunition problems.

 

[Larcen]

*sniff* *sniff*....I smell a troll hereabouts. Gotta be.

 

[reapersaurus]

In order (almost):

Technik - you say "You are trying to take away some of what wizards and sorcerors give up so much to get, their magic."
This isn't a valid worry anymore, since Eldritch Knights get full BAB + a free feat PLUS almost full spellcasting. I haven't heard many complaints about the EK "taking away some of what the fighter works so hard for, their BAB".

Fighters can't by the rules do much out of combat - that's a given by the ruleset of the game we're talking about here (D&D). This is due to their low # of skillpoints, and few class skills. Nothing is stopping your fighters from organizing camps and all that, but that's roleplaying, not rules mechanics.

Sneak Attack is not hard to get, either.

Saeviomagy - your comment about "utterly flavourless and unjustified" is quite hilarious though, in light of the EK.

DiFier - a wizard that wants to fight wouldn't use lose any feats - he'd take 1 level of fighter-type, and get weapon proficiencies with all weapons. He'd only be 3 BAB behind a full fighter, and have almost all spellcasting. Those spells would easily make him a better fighter than a fighter, so why shouldn't the fighter be able to do damage like a wizard?

paulewaug - good response.
I just would prefer not to have the fighter's abilities be something he bought with coin. (also Sollir)

Elric and seasong - my abilities to create powerful melee machines is not relevant.
Your fighter's experiences outlasting mages in your campaigns is not particularly relevant, either. I don't see your fighter casting spells like the wizard can, and that's what these extreme feats are about. Co-opting another class's supposed trademarks.
These feats are also limited uses per day, as a mage's are.

Larcen - it's not trolling at all - just a different approach to heroic gaming, one which does not include mages being as powerful in dealing damage as a fighter. I know, that's not the prevelant approach on this magic-addicted board, but I don't expect many people to have the same approach as me to heroic gaming.

I was surprised to talk to Kalynyr on the chat room about this thread, which is why I replied again.
It's interesting how noone has really broken it down mechanically, and done comparisons to see whether the mechanics hold up.
I know I'd have to re-do the 1st level Rating to stop too many "Magic Missiles" from being able to be used, but from a damage-output stadpoint, it doesn;t appear to me to be unbalance4d, since a mage can do more (or at least as much).

Maybe if a opportunity cost was involved in addition to the cost of a feat: perhaps if the fighter-type had to sacrifice 1 BAB per Heroic feat "spell".... hmmmm....