Fighters are Weak? I think not!!

[Nifft]

However, I DO have one question for a lot of you: why are numbers, optimization, and kewl powurz so much more important than character concepts and roleplaying the person who makes up your character?

I'm sure there are pleanty of extremes towards both ends (RP vs. Power Game), but in general people want to RP a hero, and a hero is someone who can, when necessary, kick a lot of butt.

Second, D&D focuses on combat as conflict resolution. I've got some debate mechanics on the back burner ("I deflect his querry and subtly insult his mother!" -- "Okay, one Diplomacy and one Intimidate..."), but let's face it -- the game is geared towards combat. Being a hero in D&D means being able to handle yourself in a fight.

-- N

 

[Scion]

I gave them a feat at every level rather than just evens, increased the amount of skills they have to choose from, and increased the number of feats that qualify to be fighter bonus feats. Hasnt caused any problems, which leads me to believe that the base fighter needs a lot of help, not just a little

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm sorry, do cross-class skills not exist anymore in 3.5?

Oh, wait, they do.

So get a good Int, and take some. (though I do agree with Profession)

I don't see the Fighter being consistantly outclassed by anyone. Sneak Attack? Whoop-dee-doo! Any DM using the standard array of beasties will be injecting more than a small amount of undead into the campaign, a handful of constructs, and a couple of oozes. Sneak attack's power depends greatly on that, and on speed.

The need some extra flava (like Gez's variant, which is now my standard fighter), and a few more high-level feats (CW's style and tactics feats take care of a lot of those), but other than that, they're peachy keen.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

As to point 2: If rogues fight only single opponents who are always aware of where they are at...if you drop a wizard in a dead-magic area...etc etc...THEY are going to be completely worthless, too, if you play a character by the numbers and powurz listed in the books. The really fun part of this game is the fact that all characters are more or less meant to be stronger or more valuable in certain areas. Thus, they depend on each other to cover each other's weak spots. Thus, the group dynamic becomes very fun.

If your fighter completely sucks outside of combat, it is not our fault or the fault of the game designers. Maybe it is your fault; maybe it is the fault of your DM or his style of play. I can tell you that a few simple additions to a "standard" fighter can make a world of difference. Take the Cosmopolitain feat from FRCS (I cannot remember if it was added to the 3.5 PHB list); choose something like Diplomacy, a Knowledge, or even Spellcraft as the associated ability (assuming of course, you have an appropriate background). That will certainly change the dynamic of the character and how much you can contribute outside of combat. Even if something is not a class-skill, take a Skill Focus feat in something you want your character to be able to focus on. Non-class skills don't mean that you are not able to learn those skills; rather they are not typical for such classes and are usually more difficult to integrate into the character's normal activity of training and improving himself. I can easily see a fighter-type learning nearly any skill to go with any particular concept.

Someone mentioned the fact that it is almost necessary to multi-class with rogue levels in order to "keep up" with the damage-dealing capacity of others. I would love to rant, but that is not constructive. However, I DO have one question for a lot of you: why are numbers, optimization, and kewl powurz so much more important than character concepts and roleplaying the person who makes up your character?

Yeah if rogues are always seen by opponents there fighting ability drops and if a wizard is in a dead magic zone they suck. Whoppedy do, those situations don't happen very often, not being in a fight happens a heck of a lot. Now sure the fighter can use his pathetic skill points and crappy class skill list and ride a horse or climb the mountain, and oh go cross class and maybe be successful in those every day tasks like building a fire. But anytime he gets into tasks where success maters, where the CR of the non-combat encounter is apprpriate for the level the fighter minds as well play the xbox while the real classes get to work.(understand also when I say they suck out of a fight it is in comparison to other classes, and yet other classes do not suck compared to them in a fight.)

And sure yes if cosmopolatin is in your game you can not suck at one skill, amybe more if you take it a few times(if that's possible). But it aint in 3.5 its only in the FR book. And look out maybe I'll take skill focus so at low levels I can sorta contribute. But once I get to level 8+ I'm back to sucking again.

And yes a shutup you powergamers is a really clever ending and all, but thanks to the miracles of modern technology 1 powergaming without roleplaying is a perfectly acceptable playstlye, and 2 you can somehow achieve balance of classes, powergame and roleplay at the same time. So while yes my character personality is important to me, but the fihgter class actually being balanced in a non hack fest is important to me as well.

 

[TracerBullet42]

The need some extra flava (like Gez's variant, which is now my standard fighter)

Could you direct me to this variant? I'd like to check it out...thanks!

 

[Dirigible]

My only problem with the fighter: just why does fighter (still) not have profession as a class skill?

He does! And not only that, he gets a free rank in it at every level.

Profession: BAB.

 

[Henry]

Fighters don't have profession because they get Craft instead: A far more useful tree, IMHO.

As for the effectiveness of fighters, I have only to point to the poll taken in early 2002 that showed fighters as one of the most common class components of all eleven classes, to the players of ENWorld who participated in the poll, to point out that the fighter is a VERY popular class, and one that most people do not find either weak or flavorless.


Would I mind upping all skill points of each class by 2 points? SURE! why not? But this is a minor point in the overall skill set of the well-developed class known as the fighter.

Take the paladin or barbarian or ranger instead? Fine, but I hope you don't miss the huge amount of extra feats...

 

[Desdichado]

Fighters are strong enough, but I think they are a bit bland. What they lack is some special abilities, that are not necessarily more powerful than feats, but that would be really unique to them.

Yeah, but that also kind defeats the purpose of the generic fighter.

That said, I certainly don't have a problem with variants on the theme. I actually quite like the recent Dragon article, for instance, that creates half a dozen or so more themed fighters with only minor tweaks to the class itself. I also really like the Unfettered/Warmain dichotomy from Arcana Unearthed in which the Warmain loses a little bit of flexibility in favor of a few class abilities that favor the heavy armor/tank role.

 

[Desdichado]

Could you direct me to this variant? I'd like to check it out...thanks!

Ummm, link on page one of this thread.

 

[takyris]

I gave them a feat at every level rather than just evens, increased the amount of skills they have to choose from, and increased the number of feats that qualify to be fighter bonus feats. Hasnt caused any problems, which leads me to believe that the base fighter needs a lot of help, not just a little

Um, if I was the player in one of your games, you can be certain that I'd have no problems with you giving out massive numbers of feats, class skills, and feat selections. It wouldn't cause any problems with me.

By that same logic, you could say that because giving Tacky $2000 didn't cause any problems, Tacky must have been living in poverty.

Please, test this theory. I dare you.