Fighting from the second line.

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm currently playing in a third-level party consisting of:

1 human Paladin (sword-and-board)
1 half-orc Fighter (greataxe)
1 human Ranger (bow/longsword)
1 human Cleric (longsword)
1 gnome Druid (scimitar)
1 halfling rogue/sorcerer (dagger)
1 half-elf wizard (crossbow/quarterstaff)

Our last session took place in an ancient temple of Chaos, fighting an army of goblins and hobgoblins among the five/ten foot corridors. We did well from an in-game perspective. The paladin and fighter acted as the front line, with the paladin blocking strategic doorways to control the flow of enemies while the fighter laid waste with his greataxe. However, we did encounter a problem that (it seems) might be persistant.

Namely, with a party of 7 PCs, there are PCs in the back row who aren't able to participate every round. The ranger can usually find a line of attack to fire his bow, but often the cleric and druid are left without a really viable way to contribute. They aren't strong enough to stand toe-to-toe with hobgoblins, but they don't have a strong, reliable ranged attack (unlike the ranger).

So what I'm looking for are some strategies for second row combatants. Experiences with large parties and how to contribute, etc. I realize that some options will open up at higher levels. (The druid's spells will get better. Her player has already got her eye on Flaming Sphere, and I'm going to also suggest she consider Produce Flame.) But I'd like to try and develop strategies for getting everyone involved as soon as possible.

My first thoughts are to suggest we all get ourselves reach weapons. Even if they aren't our main weapons, they'd let those of us not on the front line still attack past our front-line allies. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 3.5, if I attack with a hafted reach weapon over my ally, the target gets a +4 AC bonus from cover, but I have no chance of hitting my ally, correct?

So the paladin, fighter, and ranger could pick up guisarmes (for trip attack goodness), and the cleric could pick up a longspear.

What about the druid? Are there any combat options that don't involve spellcasting or wildshape? Flaming Sphere seems her best option at this point. It's probably the wizard's best option too, though the wizard is a bit cash-strapped at this point, so I'm not sure he'll have the money to purchase and scribe the spell...

Any other thoughts, suggestions?

 

[Len]

Here are some thoughts:

You don't fight all of your battles in 10-foot corridors, do you? When there's room to maneuver, armoured characters (cleric, druid) can wade into melee, and even when they don't expect to hit they can provide flanking for the fighter and paladin.

Rogues love to flank too, of course, but your rogue/sorceror may not feel secure enough about his HP to get into the fight. But presumably he's got spells he likes to use.

And finally, I advise the non-warriors not to get all hung up on dealing damage in combat. They'll just be disappointed as they fall further and further behind the fighter in that department. The cleric ought to be casting buff spells on the front-liners (if he didn't have a chance to do so before the battle) and curing spells to keep them on their feet. And when you run into undead, he gets to be the hero.

The druid should be summoning a beastie or two in every fight. Even when "nature's allies" aren't very strong, they divide the enemies' attention and provide flanking bonuses.

 

[Pbartender]

Assuming that you really do want useful melee combat tactics for the non-combat indivuals in a limited space...

Try using reach weapons (longspears are best, since they are simple weapons), in conjunction with the Aid Another action. You only have to hit an AC 10 (14 with cover), and it gives those front liners a +2 to either attack or AC. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

I often use this tactic against my PCs with hordes of low CR creatures.

With a single PC surrounded by orcs, for example, you can feasibly get eight orcs adjacent to the PC, and another sixteen 10' away... two dozen orcs altogether. That's potentially a +22 bonus to Attack or AC to one of those orcs... Or potentially a +4 to Attack or AC (or +2 attack and +2 AC) to each of the orcs in the 'inner' ring.

Gives game mechanical credence as to why a phalanx of pikemen (with a frontline of swordsmen) would be so effective.

 

[frankthedm]

there is a open content feat that negats the -4 for attacking over an ally with a reach weapon.

I allow it only for pole arms myself, but it may be a good idea for large groups. Especially since long spear is simple in 3.5.

 

[Whisper72]

If fighting in such confined spaces is relatively common (would definately be a good tactic if you have many dungeoncrawls), then have the others get ahold of stuff to throw / lob over the heads of the warriors:
- flasks of oil / greek fire
- thunderstones
- caltrops

Get bows / slings etc. themselves.

Also, it depends a bit on the way you DM. Using the official rules and miniatures, it would seem that the Tanks can just stand there and not be dislodged. Either through some houseruling or roleplay like, you can judge that even tanks getting hit stagger back a bit. This means that during prolonged fighting, the tanks will have to retreat now and then, or the dooropening is forced in any way.

In such play, the fight is now and then opened up, and otherwise, the 'second line' PC's can do some support in preparing a second line of defence and covering the tanks during the retreat to the next defensible place...

Just some thoughts to make combat a bit more dynamic and so involve the other PC's as well.

 

[dbm]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 3.5, if I attack with a hafted reach weapon over my ally, the target gets a +4 AC bonus from cover, but I have no chance of hitting my ally, correct?

Could anyone give me a page reference for that?

Ta,
Dan

 

[Vaxalon]

Everyone who expects to FIGHT in combat (rather than cast spells) should have at least three weapons in his inventory: One melee weapon, one reach weapon, and one missile weapon.

If your cleric and druid lack these things, then the simple answer is to GET THEM.

 

[Felix]

They're support melee guys, right? Well, then they should support. And when the front line doesn't need support, then they don't need it. Take a break. Put some skills in Diplomacy and try to avoid fighting encounters all the time.

And if you don't want to go toe-to-toe, then set up in flanking position and Aid Another. Since you're just harassing the bad guy and not hitting him, his attention shouldn't be on you (and if it is, the DM had better have a good reason).

Spellcasting is much weaker at the low levels, and in big parties you have to fight a lot of enemy mooks; this means that the caster's small assortment of spells is spread over more enemies. This makes fighters relatively more important. As the game progresses the casters should come into their own though; at higher levels casters are more and more able to determine the time and place of combat so this imbalance should even out... but you must be willing to wait a few levels.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

If fighting in such confined spaces is relatively common (would definately be a good tactic if you have many dungeoncrawls), then have the others get ahold of stuff to throw / lob over the heads of the warriors:
- flasks of oil / greek fire
- thunderstones
- caltrops

Get bows / slings etc. themselves.

Also, it depends a bit on the way you DM. Using the official rules and miniatures, it would seem that the Tanks can just stand there and not be dislodged. Either through some houseruling or roleplay like, you can judge that even tanks getting hit stagger back a bit. This means that during prolonged fighting, the tanks will have to retreat now and then, or the dooropening is forced in any way.

In such play, the fight is now and then opened up, and otherwise, the 'second line' PC's can do some support in preparing a second line of defence and covering the tanks during the retreat to the next defensible place...

Just some thoughts to make combat a bit more dynamic and so involve the other PC's as well.

Ever hear of bullrush? We don't need a mechanic for staggering back! Just have a hobgoblin with a decent strenght score and the improved bull rush feat.

 

[nyrfherdr]

Our last session took place in an ancient temple of Chaos, fighting an army of goblins and hobgoblins among the five/ten foot corridors.

Hmmm. If it were me, I'd find a way through the doors that have been sealed for centuries and put my back to the temple altar of chaos incarnate form a thin red line and face the hordes of goblinoids head on like real heroes!

Game ON!
Nyrfherdr