Fighting With Spears

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

What are the requirements for Great Reach and Hold the Line?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Hmm...

I don't really think the ability to throw the spear is all that great an advantage, simply because once you've done so, you've lost your main weapon. (That's assuming the spear is your main weapon, but if not, all these feats and options are moot anyway. ) In all the time I've been playing 3E, I think I've seen one spear actually thrown. Most people, IME, use javelins for throwing, and spears for melee.

Spears are easier to use than longswords, yes, but they are not inferior weapons. Try sword practice against someone (of relatively equal skill) wielding a spear. It's not easy to get inside their reach. (Of course, once you do, they're often screwed.) Each is a viable weapon under proper circumstances.

I don't think I'd allow spears to automatically be set against a charge as a default rule, but I would allow a feat that lets you do so.

And I've also done the "spears and pole arms can be used as double-weapons thing." Sorry I forgot to mention that earlier.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't think I'd allow spears to automatically be set against a charge as a default rule, but I would allow a feat that lets you do so.

Yes, I think that would be a better way of handling it.

I tend to avoid making feats required for new combat manouvres, but rather use them to refine or extend existing manouvres. Setting a spear against a charge is normally a what, a standard action (basically readying in case you are charged). A feat that reduced that to a free action seems reasonable and a nice weapon-specific feat to boot.

Cheers

 

[Terwox]

Eh, just from goofy foam-fighting quasi-SCA experience,
if there's three people, and two of them are using shields,
having the third use a spear instead of virtually anything else is optimal, assuming equal skill and an open field condition.
And yep, short range melee weapon vs. spear starting at range is difficult (very difficult if you're shieldless.)
It would be nice if there were some feats to reflect this stuff, but eh, it seems like something that would just get used against a party. (If a standard party is fighter/rogue/wiz/cleric... well, fighter/cleric could use the shields, but the rogue will want to flank instead of stand back with a spear, and I guess you could have the wizard stand back with the spear, but honestly.)
Ah well, that probably wasn't terribly helpful. Sheesh, that should be my signature.

 

[malien]

Hmmm. So, believe it or not, I've never actually seen a spear used in 3rd(or 3.5) edition combat. Or polearms. Can you tell I don't game as much as I might like to? (I used to live out of town from my gaming group, you see...)

So, the spear has reach? And there is three kinds of spears? What does reach mean to me, as a fighter? What I'm starting to get into my head is the idea that I can't say, run up to an orc, charge him and stab him with my spear, and then go toe-to-toe with the orc at all? I need to back off to get enough room to stab at him again?

You know, if someone really has a lot of free time, or love for the game, and would like to do a mini scenario with, say, a fighter of 1st level with a spear, and an orc fighting, that'd be so cool. Or, I could wish to have the core books with me, and not sitting at my friend's house, and make one for myself.

Heh. Regardless, thanks for everyone's input so far. I can't say I've been swayed either to go with it, or not, but I'm learning some more about the game!

 

[Coredump]

Historically spears were common because historically they had hundreds of people fighting wars. Historically there were very few adventurers going out in groups of 4-5 hunting orcs and Ogres.

Spears were good in a formation. One on one, they would be very hard to beat a sword and shield, nor a greatsword.

But they would sure be handy against that Ogre, don't give up an AoO when attacking.

.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Hmmm. So, believe it or not, I've never actually seen a spear used in 3rd(or 3.5) edition combat. Or polearms. Can you tell I don't game as much as I might like to? (I used to live out of town from my gaming group, you see...)

I believe it. I've seen very few polearms used either. That's the point of this discussion.

So, the spear has reach? And there is three kinds of spears? What does reach mean to me, as a fighter? What I'm starting to get into my head is the idea that I can't say, run up to an orc, charge him and stab him with my spear, and then go toe-to-toe with the orc at all? I need to back off to get enough room to stab at him again?

The longspear has reach, as do a few other polearms. The regular spear does not have reach.

With a few exceptions (i.e. the spiked chain) a reach weapon can be used against an opponent 10 feet away, rather than the normal 5 feet. Great when fighting from a few steps back, but once they close, you either have to keep retreating, or drop the weapon and pull a smaller one.

Frankly, in most campaigns I've seen--though I'm sure other folks will have different experiences--very few people seem to feel the reach is worth the necessity of having to drop the weapon when you close. I'm not sure I've seen a single longspear used, if it wasn't by a creature listed as having one in the MM.

That's why I like the idea of the Choke Up feat. It makes reach weapons more attractive, because you can also use them normally.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Spears were good in a formation. One on one, they would be very hard to beat a sword and shield, nor a greatsword.

I wonder whether you have any evidence available to back up that assertion? I'm just wondering because I've not heard anything to that effect. Two anecdotes:

15 years ago the BBC did a series on martial arts (the way of the warrior) and a japanese sword master had a duel with one of his students using a spear, and he was hard pressed to defend himself adequately. The reach of the spear was a huge problem to overcome (similar problems facing Bo staff too).

Even longer ago many of my friends were involved in civil war re-enactment societies, typically they used 8ft halberds (no foam, just wooden heads). As an experiment I had a little duel with one of them when I had a 4ft bamboo stick (stay with me ) and the rule was that if I could even touch him, he was dead. I couldn't touch him. The reach of the halberd and the degree of control it gave in the battle was incredible, far more than I'd anticipated.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

I believe it. I've seen very few polearms used either. That's the point of this discussion.

I've actually got a polearm-armed monk in one campaign I play in - he has a guisarme (10ft reach, 1d10 damage, x3 crit) and can use his monk unarmed kicks and headbutts against targets within 5ft of him.

Apart from spates of abysmal die rolling it is working out quite well - whenever he would only get a single attack he can attack with the guisarme. The reach means that his AoO when flatfooted from combat reflexes comes into play more often. Indeed, if someone charges to attack him he can get the AoO from the guisarme and then either give a flurry of kicks in a full attack or tumble out of combat and ready an attack the next time they come in (getting the readied attack and the AoO if he's lucky).

 

[Nifft]

Call me the lone voice of dissent on this one, but I don't really think a spear should be the equivalent of a longsword. It's an inferior weapon.

True, and IMHO this is reflected in how easy it is to Sunder a spear, using a long sword.

That's a weakness that's not often exploited by PCs, but it's still there, and maybe we should make them consider it.

-- N