Fighting With Spears

[Grayhawk]

I don't think so. It is, as you correctly pointed out, just a normal AoO, not one granted by readying a weapon, or by the feat that mimics readying the weapon.

Gotcha.

On a totally unrelated note, would you mind swinging by House Rules and give me your view on the couple of threads I started there? Especially the two with Turn Undead in their title. I'd greatly appreciate any input!

 

[getyourspotusa]

It may not have been optimal, but I have a character that started out F2/Wiz3 who used longspear to great effect when spells were out or didn't make sense for the situation. He did much damage with it from the rear ranks... (high strength helps. )

He always had his gloves of storing, of course, those came in handy many times, and especially for just carrying around the long pointy stick.

(I may change longspear to another polearm in the near future for the disarm or trip benefit... any reach weapons that provide both trip and disarm bonus, besides the $%^&*( spiked chain?).

 

[malien]

So, I got my hands on my PHB... a spear (not long- or short-) is just like a normal weapon. That's mostly what I was worried about, in my initial question. Hehe.

So, is the spear, just the normal one without reach, at all good to use for a melee fighter? Or am I going to find better use with something else? I admit, part of my reason for wanting the spear is stylistic. And because the cult of the sword is beginning to get stale.

 

[Coredump]

I wonder whether you have any evidence available to back up that assertion? I'm just wondering because I've not heard anything to that effect. Two anecdotes:

I will see if I can track some down, but chances are this thread will be dead by then...

15 years ago the BBC did a series on martial arts (the way of the warrior) and a japanese sword master had a duel with one of his students using a spear, and he was hard pressed to defend himself adequately. The reach of the spear was a huge problem to overcome (similar problems facing Bo staff too).

But realize, I was speaking of a sword and a shield. It makes a big difference. And was it a true 'piercing only' spear, or was he also slashing with it? And were they recreating combat with or without armour?

Even longer ago many of my friends were involved in civil war re-enactment societies, typically they used 8ft halberds (no foam, just wooden heads). As an experiment I had a little duel with one of them when I had a 4ft bamboo stick (stay with me ) and the rule was that if I could even touch him, he was dead. I couldn't touch him. The reach of the halberd and the degree of control it gave in the battle was incredible, far more than I'd anticipated.

Halberds in the Civil war...hmmmm...
Anyway, two big differences. Sword with no shield, and polearm not spear. Yes reach is very important. Much more important than 'weapon speed' or whatever. But being able to slash is a large 'improvement' over a spear, and having no shield to defend with...a large disadvantage.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So, I got my hands on my PHB... a spear (not long- or short-) is just like a normal weapon. That's mostly what I was worried about, in my initial question. Hehe.

So, is the spear, just the normal one without reach, at all good to use for a melee fighter? Or am I going to find better use with something else? I admit, part of my reason for wanting the spear is stylistic. And because the cult of the sword is beginning to get stale.

Unfortunately, in the RAW--and not using any of the variants or options discussed here--the spear really is an inferior weapon if you've got access to martial weapons. It does the same damage as the longsword, but requires two hands, and if you're going two-handed, there are far better martial weapons. It can be thrown, but honestly, that's not that big of a deal in most cases. The only advantage it has is that you can set it against a charge and do extra damage, and again, how does that come up?

I'm all about making stylistic choices. I just wish you didn't have to sacrifice effectiveness for it. But unless your DM is going to allow some of the options discussed here, I'm afraid a sword really is a better choice, mechanically, for anyone with access to them. :\

 

[malien]

Unfortunately, in the RAW--and not using any of the variants or options discussed here--the spear really is an inferior weapon if you've got access to martial weapons. It does the same damage as the longsword, but requires two hands, and if you're going two-handed, there are far better martial weapons. It can be thrown, but honestly, that's not that big of a deal in most cases. The only advantage it has is that you can set it against a charge and do extra damage, and again, how does that come up?

I'm all about making stylistic choices. I just wish you didn't have to sacrifice effectiveness for it. But unless your DM is going to allow some of the options discussed here, I'm afraid a sword really is a better choice, mechanically, for anyone with access to them. :\

Yeah, that really does suck. It puts a hamper on my desire to go with it, honestly. I mean, making a stylistic choice is one thing, but having not many options /because/ you made that choice... ugh.

But, say I did go with the spear. Run with me for a second. Any suggestions for a build for a fighter? Is there /anything/ we can wring out of the idea? Maybe even a WotC book (not FR... we don't own any) that has a decent prestige class to work with? Or /anything/? World, throw me a bone here. I just want to be different...

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I've wondered what effect it would have on gameplay if there was some sort of 'deny movement' option for the spear. Say, if you provoke an AoO moving into attack a spearman due to the spear's reach, and the AoO hits, you are stopped at that point and can't close the distance.

 

[Coredump]

So, I got my hands on my PHB... a spear (not long- or short-) is just like a normal weapon. That's mostly what I was worried about, in my initial question. Hehe.

So, is the spear, just the normal one without reach, at all good to use for a melee fighter? Or am I going to find better use with something else? I admit, part of my reason for wanting the spear is stylistic. And because the cult of the sword is beginning to get stale.

Yes, other weapons are better. Big deal. You may be able to get an extra point or 1.5 per hit extra, but again, big deal.

Longspear gives reach, which is pretty cool.

Short spear can also be thrown. And can use a shield.

Both can be used two handed for the 2:1 power attack

Things to check with DM. Can you treat Longspear and ShortSpear as the same proficiency. (for weap focus, etc.) Does he allow any 'choke up' feats.
Can you use the shortspear as a double weapon, ala quarterstaff? Can you add a 'hook' for tripping?

Go for the style. Besides, when the party finds a magic sword, everyone fights over it, but a spear...all you baby.

Mouse: A shortspear is very specifically a one handed weapon.

.

 

[Coredump]

Yeah, that really does suck. It puts a hamper on my desire to go with it, honestly. I mean, making a stylistic choice is one thing, but having not many options /because/ you made that choice... ugh.

It isn't much worse. Yeah a longsword will do a bit over a point a hit more, but you can throw the shortspear. With quickdraw, you can throw it and keep going.

A long spear gives AoO when they close.

But, say I did go with the spear. Run with me for a second. Any suggestions for a build for a fighter? Is there /anything/ we can wring out of the idea? Maybe even a WotC book (not FR... we don't own any) that has a decent prestige class to work with? Or /anything/? World, throw me a bone here. I just want to be different...

If you were willing to go with a polearm, I would say go reach/trip/etc.

Shortspear. Get quickdraw, power attack, rapid shot, and someway to carry a bunch of spears. You can even do your full attack melee with PA and still throw the spear, and draw another one. You never have to give up your Rapid Shot. Or can use a shield, or TWF, but it being medium, I would not suggest it.
You don't get AoO's but... get a returning short spear. Now you can have a magical spear to PA with, and still throw, and it will return to you. Better yet, also get a shield you can attack with, and still get AoO's.

Long spear: use the range. If you can add a hook, cool. But that is not RAW. get the feat that allows for extra AoO's, and any other feat that builds on that. Feats that give you extra goodies when you get AoO's. There *is* a feat that will stop them from closing if your AoO works.
Get Spring attack. When they close you get AoO, they get one attack. You move 5', get attack, and then move 5 more feet. They don't get AoO, but need to close again. You get a 2:1 advantage.
Cleave could be cool, since with reach more creatures are within reach.
Not sure about this one. Get quickdraw, and daggers/shuriken/etc. You can throw the whatevers, until they try closing, and they switch to spear work. (Rapid shot would also work, but getting feat intensive)
Pick up a level of monk, and use unarmed within 5'


But most of all, act cool, walk cool, kick ass in a cool fashion..... and have fun with it.

 

[malien]

Yes, other weapons are better. Big deal. You may be able to get an extra point or 1.5 per hit extra, but again, big deal.

Longspear gives reach, which is pretty cool.

Short spear can also be thrown. And can use a shield.

Both can be used two handed for the 2:1 power attack

Things to check with DM. Can you treat Longspear and ShortSpear as the same proficiency. (for weap focus, etc.) Does he allow any 'choke up' feats.
Can you use the shortspear as a double weapon, ala quarterstaff? Can you add a 'hook' for tripping?

Go for the style. Besides, when the party finds a magic sword, everyone fights over it, but a spear...all you baby.

Mouse: A shortspear is very specifically a one handed weapon.

.

Yeah, style is where it is at. Though, my heart would soar had there been, in some printed source, a PrC that was, like, some spear-fighter or something.