Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark

[Retreater]

Sounds pretty OSR to me.

Is there a reason you couldn't start over with the same characters to save time? Play a zombie version of your dead character?

I wasn't the GM, but my thought is that he wanted to maintain some level of verisimilitude. Each time we started with a new group, we represented another dungeon faction.

I guess I'm not the OSR type. I don't have nostalgia for this kind of play. I like the idea of lighter rules, thinking outside your character sheet. But I don't like throwing away characters after a single hit or save or die saving throw (we all died to a DC 15 petrification effect).

My "old school" was building theme and dread through clues and investigation. It was talking to the villagers and finding out that they were dealing with a werewolf. And since we were unable to fight it directly, we would research weaknesses, try to scare it off with torches at night while the silversmith fashioned a single silver arrowhead, then send the fighter out to grapple the beast so the ranger could shoot the arrow in its heart.

It wasn't a dungeon crawl avoiding room after room of goblins until we eventually failed a check, we got overwhelmed and were slaughtered. Then you laugh and make new characters. And you rinse and repeat for a year. If that had been my game, I'd have rather played Diablo or HeroQuest.

 

[Retreater]

Yeah, so your just not looking for what Shadowdark is. Which is again, fine.

It isn't combat focused.

It really needs more stuff that isn't combat-focused, then. Talents that aren't 100% combat bonuses. Challenges in the book beyond monsters.
If it's based on B/X, we're talking about fighting in dungeons.

 

[Scribe]

It really needs more stuff that isn't combat-focused, then. Talents that aren't 100% combat bonuses. Challenges in the book beyond monsters.
If it's based on B/X, we're talking about fighting in dungeons.

No it doesnt, and no we are not.

Its a game about going into dungeons, yes, and getting the treasure. Combat is not a requirement of the system.

Treasure, is a requirement of the system.

Talents that are not 100% combat bonus?

Fighter
Combat
Combat
Not Combat (CON = HP)
Combat
Not Combat

Priest
Not Combat
Combat
Not Combat
Not Combat
Not Combat

Thief
Combat
Combat
Not Combat
Combat
Not Combat

Wiz
Not Combat
Not Combat
Not Combat
Not Combat
Not Combat

Now, when you think 'Fighter' in any kind of D&D type game...do you think anything other than exactly what the SD Fighter is? Of course its combat heavy.

When the Thief already gets ADV on 'being a thief', because its a fully realized Class for the player expectation at level 1, what are you looking for?

The Wizard doesnt have a single 'combat only' Talent.

Hey, if the game doesnt fit you it doesnt fit you, but you simply are not looking for Shadowdark, the same as I am not looking for Daggerheart, or 5.5.

 

[Velderan]

I mean, our GM got so tired of the TPKs, he rush leveled us to 6th, and it didn't do much to improve our odds.
Getting jumped by a phalanx of hobgoblin archers, it doesn't matter much. You're dead before you can take an action.
The problem is, statistically, the monsters are better than you. They have better attack bonuses and armor, they outnumber you, and if you can't outwit them in their environment, all the player skill in the world isn't going to help.
I haven't played B/X, but I would say characters in SD might be worse because of the chance of spellcasting failure, no hirelings, no darkvision, weakened spells.
But also, most of us were children when B/X came out. We could play games as long as we wanted, several times a week, without worrying about jobs, families, etc. As an adult who has seen the hobby advance over the past 40+ years, I want more than a 50/50 chance to beat a goblin.

Most of your criticism sounds like some common issues keep recurring so let me ask this: did any of your GMs roll reaction checks to see how the monsters you encountered would respond? Unless you have a bad charisma modifier, there's a slightly less than 50% chance a monster encounter would immediately be hostile and attack. And even if the monsters were hostile, there were no clues at all to warn the players they were about to be attacked by a bunch of hobgoblin archers that were able to kill you before taking an action? No one in the party was doing anything the GM could use as an excuse to feed you a hint that proceeding blindly is going to kill you?

 

[Retreater]

When the Thief already gets ADV on 'being a thief', because its a fully realized Class for the player expectation at level 1, what are you looking for?

Off the top of my head
Ideas I'd like for the thief...
A talent that lets you hide while being observed, even if it's just for a split second. And maybe with a mechanic where you can lose it (like a spell casting roll). [Because in my game it was almost impossible to ever get to backstab. Or escape from enemies.]
A talent that lets you see in the dark for like one round - so you can either sneak or maybe relight another torch under dire circumstances. Can also be a roll to lose it for the day.
Other abilities...
Escaping grapples/bonds.
Learn to use scrolls.
Quick appraisal of treasure.
Ability to carry treasure more effectively (maybe coins weigh half as much?)
Dodge to take half damage from certain attacks or spells
Ability to use poisons

 

[GMMichael]

Unless you have a bad charisma modifier, there's a slightly less than 50% chance a monster encounter would immediately be hostile and attack.

I mean, when four dudes and dudettes enter the room brandishing sharpened steel . . . they don't look like they want to talk.

 

[Scribe]

Off the top of my head
Ideas I'd like for the thief...
A talent that lets you hide while being observed, even if it's just for a split second. And maybe with a mechanic where you can lose it (like a spell casting roll). [Because in my game it was almost impossible to ever get to backstab. Or escape from enemies.]
A talent that lets you see in the dark for like one round - so you can either sneak or maybe relight another torch under dire circumstances. Can also be a roll to lose it for the day.
Other abilities...
Escaping grapples/bonds.
Learn to use scrolls.
Quick appraisal of treasure.
Ability to carry treasure more effectively (maybe coins weigh half as much?)
Dodge to take half damage from certain attacks or spells
Ability to use poisons

Thats essentially 3 classes worth of abilities.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Hmm. This mostly sounds like bad DMs (why on earth would you just go through dungeon rooms in numerical order?) along with general unfamiliarity with the system.

Outside of spells, you should not be automatically rolling for anything. Because yes, if you are rolling for things you should be able to do routinely, you will fail and die at a comically unlikely rate. (Also an issue with BD&D, 1E and Mothership.) That 60% chance of success should be when your character is doing something under extreme pressure (someone's shooting at you, the building is on fire, you have only seconds before the water rises to the ceiling, etc.).

In short, the spellcasting rules are terrible. They are so unpredictable as to be basically worthless.

I have heard this complaint but never seen it happen that way in practice. Did your casters have super-low stats? Note that wizards automatically have advantage in their spellcasting rolls on magic missile. But, as you say, it's a popular house rule to have the first cast of each spell a day automatically succeed.

You're not obligated to like any game, but I would encourage you to try one more time, with a more experienced Shadowdark DM. Your problems sound like they're mostly due to inexperienced (or simply bad) DMs.

Being super-rigid with dungeon turns may be the RAW, but it's definitely not RAI. They're meant to be guard rails to prevent one or two players dominating the group, not something that slows down play or makes it less fun.

I mean, our GM got so tired of the TPKs, he rush leveled us to 6th, and it didn't do much to improve our odds.
Getting jumped by a phalanx of hobgoblin archers, it doesn't matter much. You're dead before you can take an action.

This feels like the DM is running a 5E game with Shadowdark rules. Everyone, including NPCs, is fragile in Shadowdark. Instantly attacking someone else is a good way to die quickly and horribly. Reaction rolls should be used every time, even if the DM is weighting the outcome based on the situation.

 

[TerraDave]

You don’t like anything! But I appreciate the review.

 

[Fenris-77]

You can't judge a system based on some wacky crazy-pants implemetantion, or on small sample size outcomes. Other forums have a decided lock on that kind of shizz. We can do better.