Fireball and line of site/effect

frankthedm said:
And yet a wall of ice can be struck down by adjacent foes with a reflex save...Granted I do feel that liability of wall of ice is utter crap. Willingly putting one's limbs into a wall of ice should flash freeze the limb IMHO.
I believe this stems from the idea that "A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures". Granted, I believe more people should know how to interfere with a fireball than a wall of ice, but the later is evidently far less painful (and so I guess more likely to be taught as a tactic).

I generally ignore the wall option anyway. I never ask my players if they wish to interfere with the wall, and they return the favor by never bringing it up when they themselves cast it. So far, no one has brought it up on their own (which might change if they read this post).
 

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Nice diagram :)

A couple fo issues:
Does the bead travel in a straight line? How fast does it travel, even with a readied action is
someone quick enough to block if it were allowed (reflex action DC??)?
The fact that softcover has no effect on the bead would suggest the bead has a uncanny knack of avoiding soft cover to get to its destination. :)

Cheers
Z


frankthedm said:
The example was suppost to show the boss oni [ogre magi] choosing to intercept the fireball, rather than let it get to the door. The ogre sprites were picked for thier "letting someone past" stance. The issue was "Should the boss have the option to say the buck {fireball bead] stops here?" Cover only applies once even on normal ranged attacks.
 

zlorf said:
even with a readied action is someone quick enough to block if it
Well, the rules say:
"any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character."

This can theoretically allow for some pretty incredible interruptions. I'd allow someone to say, jump in front of a bullet with a readied action (heck, they do it often enough in the movies without even readying an action). And firing a guano-tipped fireball bead couldn't be that quick (what with the caster waving his somatic components all around like a madman). Besides, readied actions are hard enough to get to work as it is.

However, I personally would not allow someone to use a reflex save to interfere with the bead.
 
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zlorf said:
Does the bead travel in a straight line? How fast does it travel, even with a readied action is someone quick enough to block if it were allowed (reflex action DC??)?
Straight line. It's fast. Damn fast. 600' in less time than a standard action fast.

I'd say the bead has -5 from lack of dex, +5 from overall speed, +8 size for an AC of 18. Though only AC 5 if a shield or body is being used to block the bead.
 

Nah, the bead provokes AoO's for movement just like everything else.

It's just that most people aren't crazy enough to try and take a swing....
 

When a PC in combat casts a spell when they come up in the initiative order, people ARE where they ARE. If you can see it and it's in range of the spell, you can target it and there's NO chance of hitting something else unless the description of the spell specifically notes it. The bit in the Fireball description about "passing through narrow areas" is a somewhat more exotic application of the spell than simply targetting someone on the other side of a crowded battlefield. Casting a spell so that it passes through a small hole is different than simply making it explode on someone's face, mostly since the intention is to have the spell detonate in an area you CAN'T actually see instead of where you can see. The bit of description about hitting things that may be intervening between the caster and the target has a LOT more to do with things like Walls of Force and Invisible creatures than it does for normal stone walls and creatures that you CAN see.

Yes, this is a gross simplification but it's the way the rules work, and it's a simplification that avoids having to resolve all kinds of annoying inconsistencies (such as lobbing fireballs or anything else past large intervening opponents who might otherwise be considered to be moving.

Remember that one does not "aim" a fireball - it's actually targetted like any other spell. It has the particular drawback of BEING ABLE to impact on something prior to detonating at its targetted location, but that doesn't mean that as a DM you should be looking for ways to re-interpret and interfere with it simply functioning normally every freakin' time it gets cast. That ISN'T what the "pre-detonation" thing is there for unless you're doing that with every freakin' spell in the book - in which case you'll get the angry, frustrated players you deserve. The spell should not go awry unless you can't see (by accident or intent) where it's going to impact. If it were intended that the spell COULD be so routinely and easily interfered with then it wouldn't be providing rules for sending it through arrow slits - IT WOULD BE PROVIDING RULES FOR JUST GETTING IT PAST EVERY CREATURE ON THE FIELD SO IT COULD EVEN BEGIN TO BE USEFUL.

The game is designed such that what you want to hit with a spell, you hit; where you want a spell effect to go, it goes. AFTER the spell gets to where you wanted it to go, or hits the person you wanted it to hit is when you generally start dealing with avoiding the effects by a last minute dodge, resisting the damage dealt, etc.

As always, the right of a DM to use his own preferred interpretations and house rules cannot go without saying, but there is no need to start hanging additional rules on Fireballs and how they work. Fireball is really a rather straight-forward spell.

Now it is true that in "reality" the NPCs are still moving when the PC casts his spell. But for all rules purposes, except those for which specific provision is made (firing into melee, AoO...), neither their past or future movement, nor their current activity bears additional consideration for resolving the spells effects. For example, in reality the person being targetted by the fireball in question may be moving at a dead run - but it doesn't matter where he started that movement, if he will continue that movement, nor how far or fast he's moved. It doesn't matter what anyone elses movement is, was, or will be. The only thing that matters is where he is NOW because on a given characters turn all actions are resolved on that basis - where things are now.

As for attempting something like "swatting a fireball out of the air as it travels to its point of detonation", yes it's theoretically possible - but I wouldn't even BEGIN to allow anyone to think to try it unless they had ability to snatch/deflect arrows and recognize spells as they're being cast, as those would be the minimum sorts of skills that would be needed to attempt it. It's a move that is definitely exotic and thus has no rules to support it. It REQUIRES the DM to adjudicate the situation and that has several requisites of its own. Any individual trying to just hit a speeding fireball with his hand and making it detonate early must,
A) identify the spell being cast as Fireball (or guess correctly that it will be if you're going to ready an action to accomplish this little feat)
B) have the ability to act out of initiative order if you're doing this on the fly
C) have some kind of feat or ability like catching/deflecting missiles as the action being taken or readied
D) have the fireball whizzing through your occupied space unless whatever feat/abilities you're using enables something other than that.

I can see this being done by a monk, ninja, dwarven defender, or multiclass mage if they're EXPECTING a fireball as the casters next spell, but this has to be a wild, bizzare tactic for characters with particular appropriate skills and NOT for the average mook who is in the line of fire.
 

I agree with The Man, we are over-thinking it (at least for the rules forum). Fireball doesn't need an attack roll on normal circumstances, and this isn't an exception.

To a lesser extent I agree with intentionally stopping the fireball. He needs some way of acting out of initiative (readied action OR snatch arrows IMHO). I'd have to compare the snatch arrows mechanic, attack a diminutive size target (AC5+12), or possibly a reflex save (success means you catch the fireball, and take full damage). I might even let the one stopping the fireball choose which method he wants to use.

Note: I left the 'speed' factor to AC out because there is no precedent for velocity adding to AC (again haven't looked up snatch arrows). It's also an instantaneous effect so speed calculation is nonsensical anyway. Again in D&D instantaneous actions can be interrupted with a readied action or a few other circumstances.
 

TheGogmagog said:
To a lesser extent I agree with intentionally stopping the fireball. He needs some way of acting out of initiative (readied action OR snatch arrows IMHO). I'd have to compare the snatch arrows mechanic, attack a diminutive size target (AC5+12), or possibly a reflex save (success means you catch the fireball, and take full damage). I might even let the one stopping the fireball choose which method he wants to use.
And yet using that mechanic creates an inherent contradiction. Why do you need a feat to snatch/deflect arrows and not a fireball bead? Why can't I use the same mechanic on the fireball bead that you create on the fly on things like arrows, daggers, and frying pans?
 

Infiniti2000 said:
And yet using that mechanic creates an inherent contradiction. Why do you need a feat to snatch/deflect arrows and not a fireball bead? Why can't I use the same mechanic on the fireball bead that you create on the fly on things like arrows, daggers, and frying pans?
The special part of the Snatch/Deflect Arrows feats are they let you catch (and return) them without readying an action (though you do need free hands). Go right ahead and use the same mechanic on other flying things, that's what the feat is for (daggers, frying pans etc...). Without a feat, ready a sunder action.

The reverse reflex save would be outside of norm (I think I put 'possibly' next to the suggestion not per RAW'), and just came to the top of my head. Even then I would expect it to be a readied action.
 

Good reply :)
If softcover came into play, it would just bog things down even more.
I feel that spell effects in place should play a part though, ie blade barrier etc,
where it may provides cover against the fireball or makes it detonate early it
based on a range attack or % chance.

I think its easier to think that a fireball is pretty much like magic missle, im terms of
hitting something, but it travels in a straight line and very very fast.


But tell me what size is the fireball bead???? ;) That what Im REALLY after. *grin*


Thank you all for the comments :)
Cheers
Z

Man in the Funny Hat said:
When a PC in combat casts a spell when they come up in the initiative order, people ARE where they ARE. If you can see it and it's in range of the spell, you can target it and there's NO chance of hitting something else unless the description of the spell specifically notes it. The bit in the Fireball description about "passing through narrow areas" is a somewhat more exotic application of the spell than simply targetting someone on the other side of a crowded battlefield. Casting a spell so that it passes through a small hole is different than simply making it explode on someone's face, mostly since the intention is to have the spell detonate in an area you CAN'T actually see instead of where you can see. The bit of description about hitting things that may be intervening between the caster and the target has a LOT more to do with things like Walls of Force and Invisible creatures than it does for normal stone walls and creatures that you CAN see.

Yes, this is a gross simplification but it's the way the rules work, and it's a simplification that avoids having to resolve all kinds of annoying inconsistencies (such as lobbing fireballs or anything else past large intervening opponents who might otherwise be considered to be moving.

Remember that one does not "aim" a fireball - it's actually targetted like any other spell. It has the particular drawback of BEING ABLE to impact on something prior to detonating at its targetted location, but that doesn't mean that as a DM you should be looking for ways to re-interpret and interfere with it simply functioning normally every freakin' time it gets cast. That ISN'T what the "pre-detonation" thing is there for unless you're doing that with every freakin' spell in the book - in which case you'll get the angry, frustrated players you deserve. The spell should not go awry unless you can't see (by accident or intent) where it's going to impact. If it were intended that the spell COULD be so routinely and easily interfered with then it wouldn't be providing rules for sending it through arrow slits - IT WOULD BE PROVIDING RULES FOR JUST GETTING IT PAST EVERY CREATURE ON THE FIELD SO IT COULD EVEN BEGIN TO BE USEFUL.

The game is designed such that what you want to hit with a spell, you hit; where you want a spell effect to go, it goes. AFTER the spell gets to where you wanted it to go, or hits the person you wanted it to hit is when you generally start dealing with avoiding the effects by a last minute dodge, resisting the damage dealt, etc.

As always, the right of a DM to use his own preferred interpretations and house rules cannot go without saying, but there is no need to start hanging additional rules on Fireballs and how they work. Fireball is really a rather straight-forward spell.

Now it is true that in "reality" the NPCs are still moving when the PC casts his spell. But for all rules purposes, except those for which specific provision is made (firing into melee, AoO...), neither their past or future movement, nor their current activity bears additional consideration for resolving the spells effects. For example, in reality the person being targetted by the fireball in question may be moving at a dead run - but it doesn't matter where he started that movement, if he will continue that movement, nor how far or fast he's moved. It doesn't matter what anyone elses movement is, was, or will be. The only thing that matters is where he is NOW because on a given characters turn all actions are resolved on that basis - where things are now.

As for attempting something like "swatting a fireball out of the air as it travels to its point of detonation", yes it's theoretically possible - but I wouldn't even BEGIN to allow anyone to think to try it unless they had ability to snatch/deflect arrows and recognize spells as they're being cast, as those would be the minimum sorts of skills that would be needed to attempt it. It's a move that is definitely exotic and thus has no rules to support it. It REQUIRES the DM to adjudicate the situation and that has several requisites of its own. Any individual trying to just hit a speeding fireball with his hand and making it detonate early must,
A) identify the spell being cast as Fireball (or guess correctly that it will be if you're going to ready an action to accomplish this little feat)
B) have the ability to act out of initiative order if you're doing this on the fly
C) have some kind of feat or ability like catching/deflecting missiles as the action being taken or readied
D) have the fireball whizzing through your occupied space unless whatever feat/abilities you're using enables something other than that.

I can see this being done by a monk, ninja, dwarven defender, or multiclass mage if they're EXPECTING a fireball as the casters next spell, but this has to be a wild, bizzare tactic for characters with particular appropriate skills and NOT for the average mook who is in the line of fire.
 

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