D&D (2024) Fireball is a C Tier Spell

[Zardnaar]

What are better long range AoE options? I skimmed trough 5.5 rules, didn't go into all the spells and what changed. Also, did they give pure martials any real AoE options? That was their weak point in 5e.

Depends on what you count as long range.

Commands being used a lot along with new Tashas hideous laughter. Level 1 stun locks vs singular targets.

Spirit Guardians and Chromatic orb for damage side helping of control.

You can also upcast hunger of hadar now, old favorites like fear, slow, and Hypnotic Pattern.

With even more bloat and increased martial damage.....

Level 12 stress test they were twinning hold monster on 2-3 targets and using hunger of hadar or whatever and the world tree barbarian was teleporting foes into the hunger along with repelling blast and other forced movement. Anything that survived ran into Paladin or Champion Fighter and they were often blind/feared or whatever.

Anything with a meh wisdom save gets wrecked by stun locks and paralysis.

I was throwing 3 CR 14s at them, 8 CR 5s abd 12+ CR2 at them.

Soelkxasyers turned up but you really need 1 counterspeller per PC primary caster almost.

Spellcasters cant kill stuff fast enough the fighter/barbarian/playing could.

Level 12 martial put out 300 odd damage in one round iirc. 9 or 10 attacks.

 

[Bacon Bits]

That's a certain specific situation which a C tier rating applies. I'm not claiming it's useless (that's a D rating).

I think the problem people are having is that if "situational" automatically caps the rating at C tier, then well over 90% of the spells in the game are automatically C tier or worse, and that's very optimistic. The number of B, A or potential higher tier spells is effectively zero. In that case, the tier rating is essentially useless.

The thing about Fireball is that while it has a limited use -- it sets things on fire and little else -- it's the first spell of the lowest level where the damage quantity of an AoE damage spell is actually worth it. And while there are higher level spells with potentially more favorable geometries, none of them actually deal significantly more damage when you take higher slots into account. I think it's very worthwhile to have one good AoE spell, and I've had more than once campaign where Fireball was literally the only multi-target damage spell I ever took. Yes, there's often something better than a damage spell, but Fireball is good enough to cover essentially all the cases where an AoE damage spell is required.

 

[Maxperson]

Citation? I don't see anything in the spell description about it not damaging items.

Correct. Now contrast that with fireball that says this...

"Besides causing damage to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst radius, and the heat of the fireball melts soft metals such as gold, copper, silver, etc. Exposed items require saving throws vs. magical fire to determine if they are affected, but items in the possession of a creature that rolls a successful saving throw are unaffected by the fireball."

Cone of cold didn't do damage to items, because unlike fireball, it didn't say that it did.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think the problem people are having is that if "situational" automatically caps the rating at C tier, then well over 90% of the spells in the game are automatically C tier or worse, and that's very optimistic. The number of B, A or potential higher tier spells is effectively zero. In that case, the tier rating is essentially useless.

The thing about Fireball is that while it has a limited use -- it sets things on fire and little else -- it's the first spell of the lowest level where the damage quantity of an AoE damage spell is actually worth it. And while there are higher level spells with potentially more favorable geometries, none of them actually deal significantly more damage when you take higher slots into account. I think it's very worthwhile to have one good AoE spell, and I've had more than once campaign where Fireball was literally the only multi-target damage spell I ever took. Yes, there's often something better than a damage spell, but Fireball is good enough to cover essentially all the cases where an AoE damage spell is required.

As a DM I'm happy when they fireball vs sonething else.

I get to do stuff!!.

Tier rating is basically how useful a spell is in most common situations.

Eg guidance useful all the time, powerful effect.

Resist elements situational C tier.

Combats very common so combat spells are easy to rate.

Fireball gas a lot of * beside it.

1. It the combat a large number of targets.
2. Are they conveniently clustered.
3. Are they immune/resistant to fire (very common only poison is worse)
4. Can I get it off without hitting alies/win or good initiative?
5. Ideally are they low HP (moderately useful if they're CR2+).


Compare with say bless. It's always good regardless of the situation (in combat), always effective. Scales great the only negative is opportunity cost on concentration slot.

Single target spell that deals damage better deal lots of damage or have a good rider effect.

 

[Guest 7037866]

Correct. Now contrast that with fireball that says this...

"Besides causing damage to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst radius, and the heat of the fireball melts soft metals such as gold, copper, silver, etc. Exposed items require saving throws vs. magical fire to determine if they are affected, but items in the possession of a creature that rolls a successful saving throw are unaffected by the fireball."

Cone of cold didn't do damage to items, because unlike fireball, it didn't say that it did.

Yeah, I don't think so...

Very little in AD&D specified such things, such as Dragon's Breaths, but you made saves for all your items when you fail the save against those things. Fireball is called out specifically, probably, because it had its own saves as opposed to other magical fires.

Now, full disclosure, I don't have my 2E DMG anymore, so I am going of off 1E.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, I don't think so...

Very little in AD&D specified such things, such as Dragon's Breaths, but you made saves for all your items when you fail the save against those things. Fireball is called out specifically, probably, because it had its own saves as opposed to other magical fires.

Now, full disclosure, I don't have my 2E DMG anymore, so I am going of off 1E.

You are correct. I just looked at the DMG and it says,

"When weapons are subjected to a general danger- the flames of a fireball, the icy chili of a cold ray, or the smashing blow of a giant's boulder-the roll to hit and hit points do not apply. Instead, the following Item Saving Throw table is used."

Cold is super easy to save against! Everything saves from 2-6, except potions which need a 13 to save.

 

[FrogReaver]

As a DM I'm happy when they fireball vs sonething else.

I get to do stuff!!.

Tier rating is basically how useful a spell is in most common situations.

Eg guidance useful all the time, powerful effect.

Resist elements situational C tier.

Combats very common so combat spells are easy to rate.

Fireball gas a lot of * beside it.

1. It the combat a large number of targets.
2. Are they conveniently clustered.
3. Are they immune/resistant to fire (very common only poison is worse)
4. Can I get it off without hitting alies/win or good initiative?
5. Ideally are they low HP (moderately useful if they're CR2+).


Compare with say bless. It's always good regardless of the situation (in combat), always effective. Scales great the only negative is opportunity cost on concentration slot.

Single target spell that deals damage better deal lots of damage or have a good rider effect.

Unlike fireball, bless can do nothing. If no one misses by 1d4 then bless does nothing.

 

[Zardnaar]

Unlike fireball, bless can do nothing. If no one misses by 1d4 then bless does nothing.

It's also insurance you don't know if you're going to get hit with a save.

It's still doing something all the time.

Fireball can also whiff hard as fire immunity is very common relative to everything else.

Fire resistance as well. I'e see sub 10 damage fires due to tgat. 22 rolled halved to 11 half on save for 5.

I'm just running adventures by the book I'm not going through deliberately picking fire resistance stuff it's just very common (beaten by poison).

So that 1st level spel is more reliable and generally gets rated as S tier in 5.0 at least and probably no lower than A.

I like the new Deagon Sorcerer a lit. I'm copying 2 of my players picking lightning sorcerer though.

Kinda want to do acid but not enough metamagic.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Unlike fireball, bless can do nothing. If no one misses by 1d4 then bless does nothing.

Yup. Against easy to hit targets, such as a horde of weak enemies, Bless aint particularly useful. Fireball is better.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Fireball can also whiff hard as fire immunity is very common relative to everything else.

Fire resistance as well. I'e see sub 10 damage fires due to tgat. 22 rolled halved to 11 half on save for 5.

Whist fire resistance and immunity are not uncommon, fire vulnerability and fire damage needed to stop regeneration are also not uncommon. I think it's fair to say that most casters with fireball also have other spells to deal with different situations.

And it's an error to look as how common resistances are across the range of monsters in the Monster Manual. Some types of monsters are encountered far more often than others. Personally, I use lots of undead (so necrotic sucks) and very rarely use fiends (so fire is fine).