D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[sevenbastard]

How often do you really encounter mooks in large number?

I'm not a DM who feel my player are entitled to anything. I don't pull punches, I don't change my world to accommodate thier charachter builds, I don't sprinkle in the magic items they want, I dont care about thier feelings, desires, or happiness. But even I, a cold hearted bastard of a DM understand that once a PC gets fireball it is my sacred duty to include an encounter with a bunch of 2hd monsters that they can turn to crispy ash statues like Linda Hamilton holding the fence in T2.

 

[Guest 7037866]

How often do you really encounter mooks in large number?

It often isn't even "mooks" in large numebrs where spells like fireball can shine.

Last night my PCs encountered 6 awakened trees (CR 2, 59 hp), and the first round our sorcerer got three of them close enough to fireball, rolled decent damage, and doubled it burned two of those three to a crisp and left the third at under half-hp...

Even at +8 attack roll and near 80% bounce chance, it is extremely unlikely a 3rd-level chromatic orb would have had the same results. My chances of having it bounce and hitting all three are only 32.4%, and the damage would have been less as well.

To be clear, the OP brings up nice options and times when CO might be better than something like FB, but as I said upthread I don't see it being as useful most of the time.

Still, for people who play 2024 rules it is a nice bump to the spell and makes it a viable option compared to something like chaos bolt, which was always a sorcerer "go-to" spell IME.

 

[kigmatzomat]

The occassional zombie outbreak, a goblin horde ot just a thundering herd of charging herbivores are good places for fireball to show its value.

 

[Zardnaar]

At 3rd-level Chromatic Orb (CO) averages 22.5 dmg vs. FB at 28. As @FrogReaver says, you have to hit, so I'll go with the 65% standard.

For a 3rd-level CO, you have the following:

No hit: 35%
Single hit (no leap): 13.325%
Single hit (leap, second target missed): 18.0863%
Two hits (no leap): 6.8857%
Two hits (leap, third target missed): 9.3461%
Three hits: 17.357%

At 22.5 damage on a hit, your expected damage is 26.08779 total. For FB, with 35% save, each target has expected damage of 23.1, but FB and other AoE spells are assumed to target a minimum of 2 targets, making the damage 46.2 minimum expected.

Each target will take more damage with FB, and you can easily get more targets, so unless you are SUPER worried about friendly fire, FB is still much better.

Compared to Chain Lightning (CL), CO at 6th-level is still a worse spell for damage. Total expected damage for CO is 61.6, while CL is 74.25 even if you just hit two targets--and odds are you will have more than two targets if you are going to use the spell. And with CL you don't have to worry about friendly fire.

The biggest issue is the attack roll, obviously. Now, as the OP states there are a lot of ways to buff attack rolls, and if you have targets with lower ACs, it becomes more viable.

Over all, the new CO is an "improvement" over the 2014 one... (hardly unexpected...), and can certainly have its uses, but in general I'll stick with FB and CL myself, however I can certainly see the appeal to others for a useful spell in close quarters or shorter range. Honestly, the more appealing aspect for CO IMO is you can choose different damage types, and aren't tied down to fire or lightning for FB and CL.

Finally, CO is a ranged attack, so you have to worry about disadvantage if you have a hostile creature within 5 feet of you (unless that changed in 2024?), with FB and CL you can be surrounded and it doesn't matter for the success of the spell.

DISCLAIMER: the bounce percentages I used in my calculations do not include the increased chances of bouncing when scoring critical hits. The improvement when adding it is negligible IMO.

At 65% my players aren't using it at least upcast.

Usually it's with advantage at 65% or they use it point blank on a paralyzed foe via a hold person or monster spell.

If I'm a sorcerer planning on using it I'll probably take seeking spell.

I've seen it hit every foe on its bounce and score two crits while doing it.

I did some practice rolls with hypothetical elven accuracy +innate sorcerery+seeking spell. And yeah.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm not a DM who feel my player are entitled to anything. I don't pull punches, I don't change my world to accommodate thier charachter builds, I don't sprinkle in the magic items they want, I dont care about thier feelings, desires, or happiness. But even I, a cold hearted bastard of a DM understand that once a PC gets fireball it is my sacred duty to include an encounter with a bunch of 2hd monsters that they can turn to crispy ash statues like Linda Hamilton holding the fence in T2.

Mostly using prepublished encounters. Mist are a few fies vs mooks.

The rare few the light cleric with fireball has struggled to use it due to friendly fire. He's had 1 magnificent use of FB.

 

[Zardnaar]

A small stumbling block with this spell, especially when levelling up in the field, was always its material component. It's like "okay, I can take this spell now, but I won't actually be able to use it until I get back to town and spend 50gp on a diamond. Maybe I'll just get something else for now."

It's not consumed in the casting.

 

[MarkB]

It's not consumed in the casting.

Yeah, but you still have to get hold of one in the first place.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, but you still have to get hold of one in the first place.

50gp isn't to hard to aquire. Go buy one.

 

[Guest 7037866]

At 65% my players aren't using it at least upcast.

Usually it's with advantage at 65% or they use it point blank on a paralyzed foe via a hold person or monster spell.

If I'm a sorcerer planning on using it I'll probably take seeking spell.

I've seen it hit every foe on its bounce and score two crits while doing it.

I did some practice rolls with hypothetical elven accuracy +innate sorcerery+seeking spell. And yeah.

Then you're comparing apples to oranges...

Sure, IF you do X, Y, or Z, then CO can be great, but still doesn't measure up to fireball in pure damage because it does 5d8 (avg 22.5) at 3rd level to up to 3 targets with all the extras you want to throw on it.

Meanwhile, fireball foes guaranteed damage barring evasion or resistance, does MORE damage on average (28), and can hit a lot more targets for the same spell slot.

CO has two instances to be really useful: non-fire damage and avoiding damaging allies.

Those are pretty much the only times CO will ever be better than fireball at the same spell level.

 

[Zardnaar]

Then you're comparing apples to oranges...

Sure, IF you do X, Y, or Z, then CO can be great, but still doesn't measure up to fireball in pure damage because it does 5d8 (avg 22.5) at 3rd level to up to 3 targets with all the extras you want to throw on it.

Meanwhile, fireball foes guaranteed damage barring evasion or resistance, does MORE damage on average (28), and can hit a lot more targets for the same spell slot.

CO has two instances to be really useful: non-fire damage and avoiding damaging allies.

Those are pretty much the only times CO will ever be better than fireball at the same spell level.

In practice it's not though. That's what I'm pointing out.

5.5 has made buffing accuracy very easy. I tested last night and was consistently hitting AC20 most of the time.

That 65% hit chances assumption is more like 85%+.