First thoughts on Superman Returns

[thormagni]

My very first thoughts upon leaving Superman Returns (with possible spoilers in here, so be warned.):

1. What the hell was that? Seriously. Do I even know that guy? That was supposed to be the same Superman we know from movies, comic books and television? This guy is a creep, when you really think about it.

2. Kevin Spacey is cool! Kevin Spacey is interesting. Lex Luthor is 10x as interesting as Superman.

3. How stupid are the reporters and editors in the Daily Planet newsroom? Seriously! Superman is gone for five years. Clark is gone for five years. On the DAY that Clark comes back to the Daily Planet, Superman reappears? How many 6-4, black-haired, blue-eyed, 225 pound guys are there in Metropolis? This strains my sense of disbelief to the breaking point. Sure, a combover and a set of eyeglasses as a disguise is cheesy, but c'mon. This is just ridiculous.

4. OK. Supes goes off looking for Krypton. Makes sense. He finds that Krypton is blown to pieces. Hell, we see Krypton get blown to pieces. Where does he get an adult-sized funky Kryptonian spaceship to fly back to Earth? And why does he need it, if he flew to ex-Krypton in the first place?

5. Why does Superman look like he is made of plastic? Every scene he is in, he looks like a giant, black-haired Ken doll with a big rubber cape.

6. OK. Superman is a Boy Scout, a good guy, a hero. Got it. Lois is engaged with a kid and a live-in boyfriend who seems like a great guy and she seems happy. So, back off big blue, just back off.

7. Big spoiler warning here. This takes places about five years after Superman II. Got it. In Superman II, Lois and Kal-el get jiggy in the big silver bed in the Fortress of Solitude. At the end of the movie, he gives Lois the big memory-erasing kiss. Nine months later Lois has a kid. Wouldn't that be disturbing? You didn't have sex with anyone, and now you are pregnant. Creepy? And here is a hint, you have sex with chicks, knock 'em up, erase their memory and then leave town? You are Super-deadbeat-dad and possibly a date rapist. Not super, man.

8. More spoiler here: A note to Bryan Singer. You let us know that a kid has superpowers. At that point, you can stop teasing us. Put up or shut up, I say. And an explanation should follow up really quickly. A frail, 5-year-old starts tossing half-ton objects around? You'd better commit to that plotline. Otherwise, everybody in your movie is an idiot. My 9-year-old hucks the couch across the room, I'm a little curious about where he got that strength. Apparently Pulitzer prize winning reporters aren't so curious.

9. More spoiler here: I don't care if you are the Man of Steel. Hanging outside somebody's house with X-ray vision watching what is going on inside is just creepy. That is a Peeping Tom. And if a superhero flies into my son's room and starts talking to him, in the middle of the night, while he is asleep in bed? I'm just saying, I am taking a Kryptonite baseball bat to him. These scenes were just wrong on so many levels.

10. I have had absolutely enough with the Superman=Jesus Christ parallels. You can stop beating me over the head with it.

11. Possible spoiler: Stripping our hero of his powers and having four or five goons work him over, stab him and shove him off a cliff just isn't fun. Really. Don't need to see that. Cartoony death-traps I expect. Tattooed lowlifes beating up the man of steel and sticking a shiv in, not so much.

12. More spoiler: Umm. Superman doesn't believe in killing people. Or letting people die. Super-son kills somebody with his very first super-act. Not a good precedent to set. Being Superman means not letting Luthor's flunkies get squished, especially when you are the cause of the squishing, even indirectly.

13. Are they really saying that Clark doesn't actually live anywhere, instead just keeping his suitcases in a closet at the Daily Planet? He's like the guy who sleeps on the couch in the ladies' room at night. Creepy.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Oh my. I am planning to see the movie on Saturday, but this bothers me. Is the movie about Superman stalking Lois Lane?

Why didn't they just start the franchise over, ala "Batman Begins"?

 

[00Machado]

What the hell was that?

For the benefit of those who might want a different point of view, I noted my take on the items you listed you weren't happy with regarding the movie.

I thought it was a good movie. Lots better than X-Men3, for example, which I also thought was entertaining.

My biggest diappointment was that Luthor's character wasn't developed enough to adequately convey his cerebral aspects, though if you know the character, you can read between the lines and fill things in, at least I did, well enough to suit myself anyway.


"This guy is a creep, when you really think about it."
I don't see that he did anthing creepy, except for perhaps once when he eavesdropped on a conversation Lois and her boyfriend were having, and looked into their house with his X-ray vision. He was not seeing them in any compromising way though, and the info Lois was imparting had to be communicated to the audience somehow, and in such a way that The Superman character knew it as well.

"Kevin Spacey is cool! Kevin Spacey is interesting. Lex Luthor is 10x as interesting as Superman."
Specy's Luthor was interesting, but I feel they failed to capture the calm superiority and confidence of the character. I don't think the story conveyed the scientific and strategic acumen of this mastermind villain either.


"How stupid are the reporters and editors in the Daily Planet newsroom?"
I just chalk it up to being part of the genre. For me, it's not any different than when Clark disappears and Superman reappears.

"Where does he get an adult-sized funky Kryptonian spaceship to fly back to Earth? And why does he need it, if he flew to ex-Krypton in the first place?"
As to where, I figure he grew it in the fortress of solitude using - as Jor-El indicates early in the film - the combined scientific knowledge of Krypton and many other worlds. The movie also lays the foundation for this logic in Luthor's dialog about crytals growing, in how the kyrptionian cyrstal is used by Luthor, etc. As to why he'd need it, wouldn't he be unable to fly back after visiting Krypton, vising the red sun, or even it's legacy effects if it blew up with the planet?


"Why does Superman look like he is made of plastic? Every scene he is in, he looks like a giant, black-haired Ken doll with a big rubber cape."
I agree they could have done this better. I figure that some of it can be chalked up to CGI.

"OK. Superman is a Boy Scout, a good guy, a hero. Got it. Lois is engaged with a kid and a live-in boyfriend who seems like a great guy and she seems happy. So, back off big blue, just back off."
As I recall, he did for a time. Lois leaned in to kiss him first, after he explained to her why he things the world still needs heroes

"Big spoiler warning here. This takes places about five years after Superman II. Got it. In Superman II, Lois and Kal-el get jiggy in the big silver bed in the Fortress of Solitude. At the end of the movie, he gives Lois the big memory-erasing kiss. Nine months later Lois has a kid. Wouldn't that be disturbing? You didn't have sex with anyone, and now you are pregnant. Creepy? And here is a hint, you have sex with chicks, knock 'em up, erase their memory and then leave town? You are Super-deadbeat-dad and possibly a date rapist. Not super, man."
I see room for creative interpretation here. Maybe super sperm can stay alive for a long long time. long enough that no one reasonably would have seen a connection. Who knows. Even if inexplicable based on previous film lore, not a major issue for my enjoyment of the film.

"You let us know that a kid has superpowers. At that point, you can stop teasing us. Put up or shut up, I say. And an explanation should follow up really quickly. A frail, 5-year-old starts tossing half-ton objects around? You'd better commit to that plotline. Otherwise, everybody in your movie is an idiot. My 9-year-old hucks the couch across the room, I'm a little curious about where he got that strength. Apparently Pulitzer prize winning reporters aren't so curious."
It seems to me that the answer was very clear. Superman visits him, talks to him using the same words Jor-El says to Kal-El, etc.


"I don't care if you are the Man of Steel. Hanging outside somebody's house with X-ray vision watching what is going on inside is just creepy. That is a Peeping Tom. And if a superhero flies into my son's room and starts talking to him, in the middle of the night, while he is asleep in bed? I'm just saying, I am taking a Kryptonite baseball bat to him. These scenes were just wrong on so many levels.
By the point he was talking to the kid, you know the kid is his son. I don't see an issue there. Hanging outside someone else's house seemed a bit desperate, but he left after Lois said she never loved him. That was all he needed to hear. Maybe not the most ethical way of going about it. Still, he can hear all that from space anyway.

"I have had absolutely enough with the Superman=Jesus Christ parallels. You can stop beating me over the head with it."
I didn't notice any of this in the film.

"More spoiler: Umm. Superman doesn't believe in killing people. Or letting people die. Super-son kills somebody with his very first super-act. Not a good precedent to set. Being Superman means not letting Luthor's flunkies get squished, especially when you are the cause of the squishing, even indirectly."
He didn't know this was going to happen. The kid did it in a panic, and also didn't know that he had any special power. I say it's an accident, as was done in defense of the kid's mom. I would expect Supes to coach the boy on controlling his power and responsible use down the road.


"Are they really saying that Clark doesn't actually live anywhere, instead just keeping his suitcases in a closet at the Daily Planet? He's like the guy who sleeps on the couch in the ladies' room at night. Creepy."
When he got back into town, he hadn't yet found a place to stay. What's the problem with that? It's not like they kept saying over and over in the film that he hadn't found a place yet.

"I don't really understand that either. The more I think about this movie, the more disturbed I get. There is just a really creepy vibe about it, but you're stalking comment isn't far off the mark. The movie doesn't seem to think that Superman is a stalker, I think his interest is supposed to be wistful and noble, but it is really flippin' weird."
I didn't get the impression he was stalking. Isn't he supposed to be interested in Lois, after all?

"For example, there is one scene where Lois is knocked out and Superman and her boyfriend have rescued her. Superman is staring at her unconscious body intently and the boyfriend has this disturbed look on his face. Of course, Supes is x-raying her so he can say "she'll be fine" and the boyfriend's look is supposed to be worry."
The special effects of the scene was clearly showing him looking at bones and internal body health type stuff. No different than when he checks out her lungs for health in Superman the Movie.

"Clark Kent obviously takes his job at the Daily Planet just so he can be around Lois. He doesn't seem to do any work, just weasels around so he can be close to Lois. And he apparently keeps all his clothes in the Planet's storage closet. So he is "living" in the office."
I think he just put stuff in the closet that first day. And it was his suitcase, not his unpacked cot and blankets.

"When he is looking at Lois' desk, he moves some stuff to lift up a photo of her, her boyfriend and her kid. And then "accidentally" breaks the frame. But puts it back on the desk. Who rummages around someone else's desk and picks stuff up?"
It was clearly an accident when it broke. As for picking it up, YMMV. I probably wouldn't pick something up eaither, so fair point.

"He finds out her home address by overhearing her give it to a cab driver. Then he flies out to the house and instead of going in, he just hovers outside x-ray looking through the walls, watching the family do its thing."
The one x-ray vision scene that I think could be considered inappropriate.

"Lois gets in an elevator and heads to the roof. Clark watches her with his X-ray vision all the way up the building. Pretty soon he has to be looking at an up-the-skirt shot."
Before it got to an upskirt shot, he clearly and deliberately looked away. I took that to be a gentlemanly gensture to ensure he was not looking up her skirt when the elevator got to that level. Until then, he was just looking at her admiringly through the elevator door.

"Knowing she has a fiance, and a kid, and that she seems to be happy, he still tries to work his super-magic on her. She says her boyfriend is a pilot and takes her to fly, and Superman says "Not like this." Like he is saying "I'm Superman woman! I can fly. And impressive stuff. You must love me." And in their little flight around town he just happens to fly right past her house. Like "look, I know where you live!"
I think they have sufficient history that he can remind her of it by taking her to fly. Also, in a meta context, the film had many references to superman the movie. Taking Lois on a flight was one of them. THen, they flew along the water. And her house was along the water, so, I didn't see it as shocking that they flew past it.

"When she does start showing some interest, he says "I'll be around." And it sounds like, "you never know when I'll be popping up, but I'm going to be watching you."
Sounded more like tongue in cheek good natured humor, refering to the identical comment he made earlier in the film.


"He opens a window at the family's house and flies in to watch their son sleep and talk to him."
His son


"Realizing that the kid is probably his, does Superman vow to be a good father, or to help raise this super-boy? No, he gives that stupid "I'll be around" comment again."
I would think that he's considering what the best and safest approach is for the child before jumping in and being a regular figure in his life


"As I said above, the mechanics of how Superman and Lois would come to have a kid are really creepy. And remind me more of a date rape drug than a consensual relationship. 'Cause at some point, she woke up pregnant and had no idea how she got that way. How freaked out would someone be in that case?"
I'm just willing to take it a part of the story. I don't need to justify it within the context of the preceeding films.

"What does that leave Superman to do for human contact in the next film, if the great love of his life is taken by someone else? Why mess with this vital piece of Superman lore?"
I thought that was unnecessary with Lois and the other guy too. Though I disagree that she'll be taken by someone else in subsequent films, and he won't have any human that he's close to.

 

[Grimhelm]

I'm afraid starting it over from the beginning would not have saved it. I have not seen the movie, but will probably not go. Based on what John said it makes me wonder if maybe our culture no longer can envision super qualities in the way they used to. Violence and war mongering seems to be the order of the day. Killing and causing mayhem is now heroic right? I mean, if it is not, then what does that make us as a country? Perhaps we are shifting our self image, changing our code of what is good to suit who we now are as a people...?

 

[thormagni]

Why didn't they just start the franchise over, ala "Batman Begins"?

I don't really understand that either. The more I think about this movie, the more disturbed I get. There is just a really creepy vibe about it, but you're stalking comment isn't far off the mark. The movie doesn't seem to think that Superman is a stalker, I think his interest is supposed to be wistful and noble, but it is really flippin' weird.

For example, there is one scene where Lois is knocked out and Superman and her boyfriend have rescued her. Superman is staring at her unconscious body intently and the boyfriend has this disturbed look on his face. Of course, Supes is x-raying her so he can say "she'll be fine" and the boyfriend's look is supposed to be worry.

But it also played, for me at least, like Superman is checkin' out her unconscious form and the boyfriend's look is like "What the hell are you doing, you sicko?"

There are just too many moments that go by where I'm thinking "If that was anyone but the good and noble Superman doing this action, it would be entirely creepy."

For example:
1) Clark Kent obviously takes his job at the Daily Planet just so he can be around Lois. He doesn't seem to do any work, just weasels around so he can be close to Lois. And he apparently keeps all his clothes in the Planet's storage closet. So he is "living" in the office.

2) When he is looking at Lois' desk, he moves some stuff to lift up a photo of her, her boyfriend and her kid. And then "accidentally" breaks the frame. But puts it back on the desk. Who rummages around someone else's desk and picks stuff up?

3) He finds out her home address by overhearing her give it to a cab driver. Then he flies out to the house and instead of going in, he just hovers outside x-ray looking through the walls, watching the family do its thing.

4) Lois gets in an elevator and heads to the roof. Clark watches her with his X-ray vision all the way up the building. Pretty soon he has to be looking at an up-the-skirt shot.

5) Knowing she has a fiance, and a kid, and that she seems to be happy, he still tries to work his super-magic on her. She says her boyfriend is a pilot and takes her to fly, and Superman says "Not like this." Like he is saying "I'm Superman woman! I can fly. And impressive stuff. You must love me." And in their little flight around town he just happens to fly right past her house. Like "look, I know where you live!"

6) When she does start showing some interest, he says "I'll be around." And it sounds like, "you never know when I'll be popping up, but I'm going to be watching you."

7) He opens a window at the family's house and flies in to watch their son sleep and talk to him.

8) SPOILER: Realizing that the kid is probably his, does Superman vow to be a good father, or to help raise this super-boy? No, he gives that stupid "I'll be around" comment again.

9) SPOILER: As I said above, the mechanics of how Superman and Lois would come to have a kid are really creepy. And remind me more of a date rape drug than a consensual relationship. 'Cause at some point, she woke up pregnant and had no idea how she got that way. How freaked out would someone be in that case?

 

[thormagni]

And what really disturbs me is that I think this movie really messes with the core of the character in a way that, to me, is completely unnecesary. I just don't know how they can do another movie that has anything to do with the character people know and love.

I just think that superheroes have a few certain core traits, besides the costume and powers, that really define the character. And in many cases that is a familiar supporting cast. Spider-man has an Aunt May and his Uncle Ben died. Batman's parents died and he has a loyal butler, Alfred. The X-men hang out with Professor X at his school.

And Superman has Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen (which reminds me of another point I will get to later.) For almost 70 years, Superman has had a relationship with Lois Lane, intrepid reporter. After about 50 years of comic book history, he got married to Lois and now she is in on the secret, but still, she is an important part of his life. And this relationship has worked! It has stood the test of time. Now, I guess not. What does that leave Superman to do for human contact in the next film, if the great love of his life is taken by someone else? Why mess with this vital piece of Superman lore?

On the Jimmy front -- Jimmy Olsen is really, really happy to see Clark come back. I mean, REALLY happy. Apparently Jimmy has been talking about Clark, and telling Clark stories and thinking about Clark. So when Clark walks in the door of the Planet, Jimmy is just ecstatic to see him again. He's not so interested in Superman, but Clark Kent really floats his boat. I'm just saying. Probably meant to be harmless hero worship, but in this movie, it just rubbed me the wrong way. If I walked back in the newsroom at my old paper and some 20-something guy was just CRAZY about having me back, I'd be a little uncomfortable. And Jimmy seems to take a certain glee in telling Clark that the nasty Lois Lane is a taken woman.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

SPOILER: As I said above, the mechanics of how Superman and Lois would come to have a kid are really creepy. And remind me more of a date rape drug than a consensual relationship. 'Cause at some point, she woke up pregnant and had no idea how she got that way. How freaked out would someone be in that case?

How would the kid have superpowers? Clark had his DNA reorganized to be mortal before he slept with Lois in Superman II.

 

[thormagni]

How would the kid have superpowers? Clark had his DNA reorganized to be mortal before he slept with Lois in Superman II.

Well, add that to the list then of things that make you scratch your head in this movie, i guess.

 

[Grimhelm]

Perhaps my post was a little too out there, but I think it merits discussion. After all, aren't we all a little interested in what inspired the writers to fiddle an American cultural icon? It is only a theory, but I believe there are possible reasons why and that these reasons may be very cultural, taking into consideration that Superman is a cultural icon...

 

[Fyrestryke]

I saw Superman Returns last night. I thoroughly enjoyed the movie. I can see many of Thormagni's points and the x-ray stuff was a tad creepy-ish at times, but the effects were really cool. I know some of you hate it when I say this, but I just go to the movies to be entertained. I was thoroughly entertained while watching Superman Returns.