Fixing Multiclassing v0.2 (Input and opinions much appreciated)

[Sphyre]

[sblock=Introduction]Back in third edition, I didn't want a quick fix to level adjustments. I was prepared to rewrite every race. Unfortunately I didn't end up actually doing it. I was too busy with my life to be able to do it, but that didn't mean there wasn't a problem.

This edition they chose to destroy multiclassing. Doing it by feats wasn't a bad idea afterall, in 4th edition there are more of them, and it should cost the character something for the perk of multiclassing.

The problem is the fact that the multiclassing feats are extremely poorly implemented. You can't play the character you want to play, you only can spritz a few powers in there from that class. Since it's only an encounter a daily and a utility, you're only gaining limited resources, not a conceptual change of your character. Considering the main reason you should be multiclassing is not for a single power that you use intermittently, but rather an entire concept, I propose the following rewrite:

The concept is, that when you multiclass, you're despecializing. You're not as good as someone who dedicates themselves to the primary class, but in exchange you gain versatility. That versatility makes up for your willing deficiency. You balance the two. As such, when you take your first multiclass feat, you lose the stated penalties for your class. When you take the multiclass feat, you gain a weaker version of a particular class feature that you're gaining. Also, the penalty for multiclassing out should be slightly larger than the benefit for multiclassing in, as you're getting the best of both worlds.

The general rule of thumb is that those who multiclass, who were originally defenders, will lessen their ability to mark, and those who multiclass into defenders gain a limited ability to mark. Leaders are similar in which they lose one use of their ability to activate a healing surge, while those who multiclass into it will gain an ability to use the activating a healing surge 1/encounter. Likewise strikers lose a bit of their bonus damage, and those who multiclass into strikers gain some bonus damage. Controllers? No idea yet.[/sblock]

• To multiclass you must take the multiclass feat: Multiclass Fighter, Multiclass Paladin, Multiclass Warlord, Multiclass Cleric, Multiclass Warlock, Multiclass Rogue, Multiclass Ranger, Multiclass Wizard
• When you take the multiclass feat, your initial class is altered by the entry marked "Penalty."
• When you take the multiclass feat, you gain the benefits of the class that you multiclassed into, marked "Bonus"
• You may upon multiclassing swap 1 at-will attack power with one of your multiclass.
• If you are a multiclassed character of 3rd level or higher, one of your encounter attack powers may be chosen from your multiclass.
• If you are a multiclassed character of 5th level or higher, one of your daily attack powers may be chosen from your multiclass.
• If you are a multiclassed character of 6th level or higher, one of your utility powers may be chosen from your multiclass.

Fighter
Penalty: -1 hp per level, lose 1 healing surge, You can only mark on a hit.
Bonus: +1 hp per level, gain 1 healing surge, you can mark the target on a hit.

Paladin
Loses: -1 hp per level, lose 1 healing surge, Divine challenge's target can only target an enemy that you damaged this turn.
Bonus: +1 hp per level, gain 1 healing surge, You can use Divine Challenge with the following restriction: Divine challenge's target can only target an enemy that you damaged this turn. Gain the use of holy symbols

Warlord
Loses: Can only use inspring word 1/encounter, Your Inspiring Presence loses the 1/2 level bonus or your Tactical Presence is reduced to +1 (if it would normally be at least 1)
Bonus: Can use inspring word 1/encounter, Choose Inspiring Presence or Tactical Presence. You gain no benefit, but when using powers you gain the benefit of the chosen Commanding Presence. You also qualify for any paragon paths with the appropriate prerequisite.

Cleric
Loses: Can only use healing word 1/encounter, your Healer's Lore bonus is reduced to 1/2 your wisdom modifier.
Bonus: Can use healing word 1/encounter, gain the use of holy symbols.

Warlock
Loses: Your Warlock Curse damage is now 1d4/2d4/3d4 damage. You lose your Prime shot class feature.
Bonus: Choose a pact. You can now use the warlock curse ability doing 1/1d4/2d4 damage. You can use the pact boon of your pact. You can use warlock implements.

Rogue
Loses: Your sneak attack deals one less die of damage. Your brutal scoundrel or artful dodger bonus is halved.
Bonus: Gain sneak attack of 1d6/2d6/4d6. Choose Artful Dodger or Brutal Scoundrel. You gain no benefit, but when using powers you gain the benefit of the chosen Rogue Tactic. You also qualify for any paragon paths with the appropriate prerequisite.

Ranger
Loses: Reduce quarry damage by one size. Lose your bonus feat from Fighting Style.
Bonus: Gain Hunter's quarry of 1d4 damage per teir. Choose Archer fighting style or Two blade fighting style. You gain no benefit, but when using powers you gain the benefit of the chosen Fighting style. You aso qualify for any paragon paths with the appropriate prerequisite.

Wizard:
Loses: Your Arcane Implement Mastery encounter ability is now daily. You lose 2 cantrips of your choice.
Bonus: Gain the use of wizard implements and two cantrips. Choose an Arcane Implement Mastery encounter power. You can use that ability as a daily power.

Feats:

Clerical Divinity
Prerequisite: Multiclassed into Cleric
Benefit: Choose Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune or Channel Divinity: Turn undead. You gain use of that ability just as a cleric would have. You can now take Divinity feats that you meet the prerequites for.
Special: You can take this feat twice, when you take it the second time, you learn the other Channel Divinity class feature that you did not choose last time.

Crusading Divinity
Prerequisite: Multiclassed into Paladin
Benefit: Choose Channel Divinity: Divine Strength or Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle. You gain use of that ability just as a paladin would have. You can now take Divinity feats that you meet the prerequisites for.
Special: You can take this feat twice, when you take it the second time, you learn the other Channel Divinity class feature that you did not choose last time.

Notes on version 0.2:

I'm thinking about making the at-will power swap mandatory. My reasoning is that the wizard's role defining ability comes from it's powers. By forcing at-will swapping, a wizard can't just multiclass into fighter at the cost of a few little things, and gets some HP and healing surges in exchange. I liked the idea of nerfing the warlocks curse damage more when you multiclass into it, but giving the full effect of the warlock pact boon.

Overall, I think this is developing into a the system I was envisioning. As always I'd appreciate input.

Archive:
[sblock=v0.1]So here's my multiclass rough draft:

Fighter
Penalty: -1 hp per level, You can only mark on a hit.
Bonus: you mark the target on a hit.

Paladin
Loses: -1 hp per level, Divine challenge's target a target that you damaged this turn, and lasts until the end of your next turn.
Bonus: Divine challenge's target a target that you damaged this turn, and lasts until the end of your next turn. Gain the use of holy symbols

Warlord
Loses: Can only use inspring word 1/encounter, Your Inspiring Presence loses the 1/2 level bonus or your Tactical Presence is reduced to +1 (if it would normally be at least 1)
Bonus: Can use inspring word 1/encounter, Choose Inspiring Presence or Tactical Presence. You gain no benefit, but when using powers you gain the benefit of the chosen Commanding Presence. You also qualify for any paragon paths with the appropriate prerequisite.

Cleric
Loses: Can only use healing word 1/encounter, your Healer's Lore bonus is reduced to 1/2 your wisdom modifier.
Bonus: Can use healing word 1/encounter, gain the use of holy symbols.

Warlock
Loses: Your Warlock Curse bonus damage is 1d3/1d6/2d6 damage respectively by tier and you lose your Prime shot class feature.
Bonus: Choose a pact. You can now curse your enemies for 1d3/1d6/2d6 damage respectivly by tier. Once per combat you can use the Pact Boon ability of your pact. You can use warlock implements.

Rogue
Loses: Your sneak attack deals one die less damage. Treat your strength as 2 lower when determining your benefit from brutal scoundrel, or treat your charisma as 2 lower when determining your benefit from artful dodger.
Bonus: Gain sneak attack of 1d6/2d6/4d6. Choose Artful Dodger or Brutal Scoundrel. You gain no benefit, but when using powers you gain the benefit of the chosen Rogue Tactic. You also qualify for any paragon paths with the appropriate prerequisite.

Ranger
Loses: Reduce quarry damage by one size. Lose your bonus feat from Fighting Style.
Bonus: Gain Hunter's quarry of 1d4 damage per teir. Choose Archer fighting style or Two blade fighting style. You gain no benefit, but when using powers you gain the benefit of the chosen Fighting style. You aso qualify for any paragon paths with the appropriate prerequisite.

Wizard:
Loses: Your Arcane Implement Mastery encounter ability is now daily. You lose 2 cantrips of your choice.
Bonus: Gain the use of wizard implements and two cantrips.

I'd appreciate feedback to see how viable a system like this would be in accomplishing multiclassed characters that change in feel, rather than just power choice.

I was thinking you could gain two feats in addition to the initial feat. The first feat would allow you to lose an at will and/or a utility of your main class and replace it with an equal or lower of your multiclass. The second feat would allow you to lose an encounter and/or daily and relpace it with an equal or lower of your multiclass. This would cut down the number of feats needed since you're also losing some of your main class power by initially multiclassing, in addition to getting the ability to use at-wills of your multiclass without losing your paragon path.

Constructive criticism and suggestions appreciated. This is the best direction I've noticed thusfar, but still I think it's lacking.[/sblock]

 

[77IM]

This is the best multiclassing fix I have seen so far. Rather than debate specific trade offs, here are a few general questions.

1. Does this still require a feat to do? Does the feat still give you a skill, or any of the other stuff from the PHB multiclass feats? If it costs a feat, I think I would disagree with the idea that the penalty should be worse than the benefit; the advantages of versatility are paid for by a feat. Alternatively, what if multiclassing required no feat at all -- it's just an option at character creation, with the benefits and drawbacks listed roughly balancing out.

2. EDIT: I re-read, and my feat question has already been answered. Can the power-swap feats be taken multiple times? What if there was just one feat that allowed you to swap any power for any other of a similar type (at-will/encounter/daily/utility)? Mearls has gone on record saying that the powers are all roughly balanced so letting people freely pick powers from other classes should be balanced (although it breaks the role system, eroding niche protection). So maybe paying for power swaps for feats isn't necessary either, or maybe a single feat lets you swap as many powers as you want (essentially, you pick your powers from both lists).

3. How does this affect a character who choses to multiclass after first level? Like, a fighter who picks up wizard multiclass suddenly loses a bunch of HP and can't mark as often, which seems weird. Are we just going to hand-wave it the way we hand-wave retraining and forgetting of low-level powers?

-- 77IM

 

[Sphyre]

This is the best multiclassing fix I have seen so far. Rather than debate specific trade offs, here are a few general questions.

Thanks. That's at least what I'm trying to go for. An actual multiclass fix, not simply a rewrite of feats that don't quite let you multiclass.

1. Does this still require a feat to do? Does the feat still give you a skill, or any of the other stuff from the PHB multiclass feats? If it costs a feat, I think I would disagree with the idea that the penalty should be worse than the benefit; the advantages of versatility are paid for by a feat. Alternatively, what if multiclassing required no feat at all -- it's just an option at character creation, with the benefits and drawbacks listed roughly balancing out.

Balancing may make it not require it, but I think I like the idea of having a feat for it. As long as you require at least one multiclassing feat, you're making sure everyone doesn't multiclass simply because it gives more choices for optimization.

2. EDIT: I re-read, and my feat question has already been answered. Can the power-swap feats be taken multiple times? What if there was just one feat that allowed you to swap any power for any other of a similar type (at-will/encounter/daily/utility)? Mearls has gone on record saying that the powers are all roughly balanced so letting people freely pick powers from other classes should be balanced (although it breaks the role system, eroding niche protection). So maybe paying for power swaps for feats isn't necessary either, or maybe a single feat lets you swap as many powers as you want (essentially, you pick your powers from both lists).

That's probably a good idea. Making the first feat multiclass you into it. You gain the ability. The next multiclass feat allows you to choose from either class for your powers upto your normal maximum. Or it could be attempted to just be one feat to do it all.

3. How does this affect a character who choses to multiclass after first level? Like, a fighter who picks up wizard multiclass suddenly loses a bunch of HP and can't mark as often, which seems weird. Are we just going to hand-wave it the way we hand-wave retraining and forgetting of low-level powers?

Honestly, why should say Bob, a full-class fighter, and Charles a multiclass fighter wizard, be the same, except for the abilities granted by his feat? Bob takes weapon focus for example. He gets a single damage over Charles who has access to arcane knowledge to complement his arsenal. Charles is a fighter wizard who can control the battlefield through powerful magic and through being sticky like the fighter. In exchange, he's not as tough (-1 hp per level still gives him his bonus HP for being a defender from first level, but each level he's only gaining leader/striker hp instead of defender hp) and isn't as skillful at locking his opponents when he is unlucky and misses.

Not that I have put this into practice, but that's at least the kind of flavor I'm going for.

Thanks for the input; it's much appreciated as I'd like to make it less feat intensive and more customizable if possible. I'd like more input before I start looking at playtesting and revising the multiclass system.

 

[Exen Trik]

That's probably a good idea. Making the first feat multiclass you into it. You gain the ability. The next multiclass feat allows you to choose from either class for your powers upto your normal maximum. Or it could be attempted to just be one feat to do it all.

I don't quite like the idea of altering class abilities just because you took a multiclass feat, that shouldn't happen unless you go so far as a paragon multiclass.


The actual effects need a bit of adjusting, I think. Needs to gain and loose a little more class abilties, and in equal amounts. Keep it to effects that determine role, so fighters (as multi or main) would only get their mark stopping counterattack ability once per encounter.

Some specific ideas: Both defenders should lose 1 hp/level from being main, and gain 1 hp/level for multiclassing into it. Otherwise, your fighter/paladins are gonna be unnecessarily nerfed. Give or take a surge as well. Multiclassing into wizard should cost 1 hp per level (the cost of having inherently strong controller powers), and provide implement mastery 1/day, with constant effects only activating in the encounter the daily power is used.

More generally: I like fighters marking only on a hit, seems a good compromise. Abilities that effect powers in secondary ways like rogue tactics should be included as well, with bonuses of +1 instead of full ability score modifiers. Not sure exactly what I would do with the other abilities like striker added damage, but your versions look okay as far as I can tell. Just address what happens with the feats that increase the damage dice of sneak attack and the like. HP modifications might be best if it only effects paragon and epic levels.

Throw all that in with paragon paths along with some extra bennies like skills proficiencies an extra at will and some kind of action point thing thrown in, and you should be good to go.

 

[essenbee]

The problem is the fact that the multiclassing feats are extremely poorly implemented.

In your opinion - not a fact.

 

[erf_beto]

In your opinion - not a fact.

Either way, he's got some interesting ideas going here. I don't think multiclass is necessarily broken, but I have to agree that it's not the ultimate-perfect-solution-to-all-your-problems-and-needs, and this is the most creative fix I've seen so far. Kudos!

I love the "-1 hp" thing, and agree with Exen Trik that there should be a "+1 hp" to balance "Any/Defender" multiclasses (per RAW, it's better to be a fighter/wizard than a wizard/fighter IMO). You should account for healing surges as well and also, multiclassing into wizard should give you "-1 hp" (perhaps -1hp every 2 levels).

I don't like 1d3 damage for Warlock curse, but that's because I don't like 1d3 "dice".

As for the feats wich increase damage dice of striker's features and other "get feats to compensate what you're loosing" statements, I think it's okay as long as you DO invest feats in it. Perhaps scale the penalties in a way that getting the feats never allow you to be as good as if you were back then (like taking Toughness will never give your defender his prior max HP)

The only one I'm not sure I like is your Wizard multiclass: the cantrips are okayish, but using arcane implements won't do you any good without wizard powers (same with cleric, but healing word is much more usefull than cantrips I guess). So, while I would invest a feat to get Sneak Attack without rogue powers, I'm not sure I would multiclass into a wizard without spells. I know I can take other feats to get the powers, but there should be a good reason to get the first)

Brainstorm Time
Perhaps, this could be just another form of multiclassing, that could exist in the same world as the RAW: the way I see it, what you propose is a concept where a character invests equally in the training of two classes (wich is expressed as the reduced ability of your "primary" class), while per RAW, you never give up anything (wich is part of the "no penalties" design of 4e), but chooses to dabble in a second class, meaning your fighter will never be a full time wizard, ever. Ever.
It's yhe difference between being a Ftr1/Wiz9 and a Ftr5/Wiz5 in 3e.
So, you could turn you fix into "Dual Class", and balance them enough to coexist with the original multiclass feats. Of course, this would be terribly difficult, because of niche protection and all that... anyway, just brainstorming here.

Keep it up

 

[Raith5]

The problem is the fact that the multiclassing feats are extremely poorly implemented. You can't play the character you want to play, you only can spritz a few powers in there from that class. Since it's only an encounter a daily and a utility, you're only gaining limited resources, not a conceptual change of your character. Considering the main reason you should be multiclassing is not for a single power that you use intermittently, but rather an entire concept, I propose the following rewrite:

The concept is, that when you multiclass, you're despecializing. You're not as good as someone who dedicates themselves to the primary class, but in exchange you gain versatility. That versatility makes up for your willing deficiency.

4th MC is problematic in my view and I think you capture the problems well. I also agree that we should get more class feature stuff when a Character MC and there should be costs.

But I reckon your costs cut too deep into the role of each class and are maybe too complex. How about a generic cost of - 1 to all attacks and defenses if you take the original MC feat (with more access to class features of the second class) with this penalty going up to -2 when get to paragon and -3 when you get to epic?

 

[Raith5]

Double post

 

[knightofround]

I have to admit that I, too, was disappointed with multiclassing when I was reading through the PHB. But have you actually tried playing a multiclass character? With a small amount of house rules, its a load of fun.

For example, right now I'm playing a Paladin multiclassed as an Infernal Warlock. His background is that he used to be an uber BBEG many years ago but was eventually defeated by a party of adventurers, who infused an angel into him to purge the demon. It zapped him to level one and gave him terrible amnesia. I let the DM decide what happened to the party that "converted" him, but as far as my character is aware he has always been a paladin.

So right now the character is wandering the world trying to discover about his past life. As a result of the conversion, he is a paladin of Pelor. However, as I'm leveling him up I'm taking Infernal-Warlock multiclass feats, his "holy flames" start to take on a more sinister cast as the demon who he original made a pact with is wrestling against the infused angel.

The character started with stats Str 8 Con 16 Dex 12 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 16. I wanted these stats because it shows that in his heart of hearts, he really is a warlock. And I wanted him to have low Wis to represent how addled he has become as a result of the ritual and his frequent memory losses.

Normally this would be a horrible build for a paladin with the top 2 stats Str and Wis being so low. However, it is actually doable because what I've been doing is taking simply the Charisma-based encounter powers on the paladin side, and replacing all the ones that go off of Strength with Infernal pact Constitution/Charisma based abilities. At that point, all I needed was a houseruled "fallen shadowknight" feat that allowed my character to use his Intelligence score instead of his Wisdom score for his paladin-like abilities. And then make the multiclass feats so you can take them multiple times, so you can get more than 1 daily/encounter/utility.

And let me tell you, this guy is a *beast*. The infernal pact abilities give him a buttload of temporary HP and lifetaps to make him an awesome tank, and a smattering of warlock ranged abilities that target Fortitude make him offensively more versitle than a normal "tank". Of course his damage output is low in melee, but he is designed as a super-specialized defender; by multiclassing, I have made a character that is more specialized in "survival" than I could ever get with a standard Paladin/Fighter build.

I think one thing people underestimate about multiclassing is that you can select the best abilities from two classes, rather than being stuck with both best and mediocre abilities for one class. So you can ensure that none of your abilities suck.

 

[Sphyre]

In your opinion - not a fact.

Yes, let's argue semantics, as that's the most productive use of our time. Given the premise of my post, it is a fact. If you disagree with the premise, it is not a fact. Context is important.

...and that's the most of arguing semantics I'll respond to.