Fixing Quick Draw

Coredump said:
5) Charge is *not* a normal move, it is a full round action, you do not get to draw during it.
9a)It is an easy interpretation that readying a shield would also be allowed via quickdraw.
9b) Readying a shield is allowed with the move in any case.
21) Quickdraw can be used with items other than weapons, such as wands.. or potions.
I would not allow drawing a weapon free action or not at anything >= 2x move. I've attempted it, and I am well trained. On a mount as part of a charge, sure I'd allow that. But not when you are the one running or charging, no.

I'll just italicize the rest...

26) be able to switch between multiple weapons

Where multiple==2, sure. Since you only get one free action/round you don't get to quick draw multiple weapons in a round. Nor would you get to quickdraw attack quicksheathe. One per round? you say! Yes. Technically RAW says "while taking another action normally". It isn't one then another. A free action is not a standalone action. At most I'd allow 2 free actions provided each was taken *during* another action. And since you don't get more than two (normally), that is it. A few free action such as talking (provided it takes 6 seconds or less) can be done while other "free actions" are done. For example, one could move to engage, draw a weapon, and talk at the same time. Drawing multiple times for throwing multiple weapons is considered part of the full attack and is specifically called out in RAW.

27) Run and pull a weapon

See above.

28) withdraw and pull a weapon
Doesn't need quickdraw.

29) There was another one but now I can't remember... damn.
Then it shouldn't be numbered. ;)

Contrived?? You talk about evil DR 5 creatures, against a specific weapon, and call a list of 25 examples contrived? I mention everything from wands to horses,

Ok, who said anything about quickdrawing a horse?!?! :D Not in my campaign. ;)
NOw, your wand mus tbe places in a sheath for quick drawing of it. No sticking it in the pack or pouch and getting it out as a free action. :p Same for potions - they aren't weapons as used by QD.

to picking up items
Not using quickdraw. Last I looked quick draw does not apply to picking things up.

Now as to the notion that you have to pay attention to what you are doing when sheating a weapon, no not always. Not if you've done it enough or been trained. If you have the dexterity and know where the sheathe is (and it helps if it is s well designed one ;)) you can do it without much thought at all. I would insist on a feat for it though, more so than qucikdraw. It is much more difficult. I'd probably assign BAB and DEX minimums, as well as QuickDraw as prereq.

As for ready shield during move, yes per RAW if your BAB is >=1, no interp needed. :)

As for standing then drawing, no need for QD here either. Draw as you stand.

Now I'm not arguing QD is underpowered, just trying to "ocrrect" some misunderstanding as I see them. :)
 

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Shadowlore said:
I would not allow drawing a weapon free action or not at anything >= 2x move
And while that may be reasonable, it is a houserule. The assertion is that QD is weak, by the rules. The rules would allow QD to be used during a run/charge/etc.
26) be able to switch between multiple weapons
Where multiple==2, sure. Since you only get one free action/round you don't get to quick draw multiple weapons in a round.
Again, that is a house rule. The rules state "one or more free actions while performing another action." Now, the DM may decide that it is not reasonable to QD more than once/twice, but that is not at all dictated by the RAW.
Drawing multiple times for throwing multiple weapons is considered part of the full attack and is specifically called out in RAW.
Um, no its not.
27) Run and pull a weapon See above.
But allowed by the rules
28) withdraw and pull a weapon Doesn't need quickdraw.
Yes it does. Withdraw is not a 'normal move', it is a full round action. Thus you cannot draw while withdrawing, unless you have QD. (same with charge/run/etc.)
29) There was another one but now I can't remember... damn.
Then it shouldn't be numbered. ;)
Dude, it was a joke... like the star wars reference.
Ok, who said anything about quickdrawing a horse?!?! :D Not in my campaign. ;)
Well, a giant might throw one... but I was referring to mounting or dismounting, and drawing a weapon/wand/etc and still being able to attack, drink, etc.
NOw, your wand mus tbe places in a sheath for quick drawing of it.(snip) Same for potions...
Correct. But if you have quickdraw, it makes sense to put a couple of wands/potions in a sheathe.
to picking up items
Not using quickdraw. Last I looked quick draw does not apply to picking things up.
Did you actually read the initial list?? It was referring to picking something off the ground, and still being able to draw and attack/use/etc.
As for ready shield during move, yes per RAW if your BAB is >=1, no interp needed. :)
The interpretation is if QD could be applied to readying a shield.
As for standing then drawing, no need for QD here either. Draw as you stand.
Can't do it. Stand is a Move action, not a normal movement. There is a difference.
Now I'm not arguing QD is underpowered, just trying to "ocrrect" some misunderstanding as I see them. :)
Not a problem, I just don't think they actually needed correction. :)
 
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Shadowlore said:
I would not allow drawing a weapon free action or not at anything >= 2x move. I've attempted it, and I am well trained. On a mount as part of a charge, sure I'd allow that. But not when you are the one running or charging, no.
Has your "well-trained" status ever taken you as far as the study of iaijutsu? Drawing a weapon at the end of a charge is not only perfectly realistic; the Japanese have been utilizing it as a dueling technique for several centuries of time.
27) Run and pull a weapon

See above.
How long does it take to draw a weapon using Quick Draw? Eh? What's that? A free action, you say, also known as "A negligible amount of time"? So... why can't a person draw their blade as a free action (a negligible amount of time) and then run (edit: or vice versa)? Makes perfect sense to me. It is a full-round action, so you can't draw while running, but it's plenty easy to spend a negligible amount of time drawing your blade and then still have a full-round action left to spend running.
Now as to the notion that you have to pay attention to what you are doing when sheating a weapon, no not always. Not if you've done it enough or been trained. If you have the dexterity and know where the sheathe is (and it helps if it is s well designed one ;)) you can do it without much thought at all. I would insist on a feat for it though, more so than qucikdraw. It is much more difficult. I'd probably assign BAB and DEX minimums, as well as QuickDraw as prereq.
Sure, but you still have to occupy at least one arm with the stowing action, which takes your "attention" (in the form of your arm) away from doing what it needs to be doing... defending you! Additionally, I've never seen anyone move a weapon from combat-ready position to fully sheathed in less than 2 full seconds, not even the samurai from Kurosawa films.
 
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Coredump said:
Yes it does. Withdraw is not a 'normal move', it is a full round action. Thus you cannot draw while withdrawing, unless you have QD. (same with charge/run/etc.)
Withdrawing is a full-round action because it requires two move actions. It is still two move actions.

This is one of the things WoTC screwed up on in the 3.5 revision. They should have just left it the way it was in 3.0. (It was called "double move" and the actual rule was that if you do nothing in a round except for take move actions, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity for the first threatened square you leave. Additionally, taking a "double move" only differed from a regular move in that it required two actions and therefore couldn't be done as a partial action. That's it. That's all. It's just two move actions put together.)
 

genshou said:
Withdrawing is a full-round action because it requires two move actions. It is still two move actions.

Uh.

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. Please see p. 143 of the 3.5 PHB (or the same section from the RSRD). This clears up the rules for this action a lot, contrary to what you suggest. Instead of a strange rule that “if you move but do nothing else, you can avoid attacks of opportunity for the first square you leave”, it’s a completely separate option for a full-round action.

Edit: Also note, in 3.0 you couldn’t move and then draw (or sheathe) a weapon while withdrawing, either. You had to do nothing but move twice your speed to be able to withdraw, not do nothing but move your speed or use a move-equivalent action. See the description of double move on p. 126 of the 3E PHB. Also see the description of “draw a weapon” as a move-equivalent action on p. 128. And note that you’re allowed to combine the draw a weapon move-equivalent action with a regular move if you have a BAB of +1 or higher. (Yes, there is some room for interpretation here. Lots of room, really. And lots of room for confusion, too.)

(I’m very very glad that they completely revamped the definitions for different kinds of actions in 3.5. The old rules were super confusing on many of these points.)
 
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Anubis said:
Yeah, I said it. Fixing Quick Draw. Most of you are prolly like, WTF? Well it does need fixing, but not because it's broken, but rather because it's pointless.

Quick question. How many people here have every used a sword and had the sheath? I don't know about you guys, but it only takes me a split second to draw my katana from its sheath, and I'm no trained swordfighting professinal. As such, why should a feat be needed? That and the fact that a lot of weapons can't be realistically sheathed to begin with (warhammer, greataxe, greatsword,etc.).

Check Iaido. They focus on drawing the blade into the attack. And yes, they're MUCH faster than those who do not train for it (I've seen three strikes made in less than a second from the draw. Accurately. Evil stuff). Even they take their time to re-sheathe the weapon, but thier style is 'the blade stays out until danger passes'. The blade won't be resheathed during combat.

I don't mind the feat. Our rogues gain too much use from it to tweak it.
 

genshou said:
Withdrawing is a full-round action because it requires two move actions. It is still two move actions.
Sorry, but that is incorrect. The rules are very explicit in stating that withdrawing *is* a full round action. You may choose to houserule it otherwise, but by the current rules...
 

okay for the record if your weapon is +1 and flaming you get 4.5 extra damage. If the weapon is +1 flaming frost & shock, then you do 11.5 extra damage. So DR 5 is bettered by a +3 weapon or in other words if your primary weapon is 3 higher in modifiers than your alternate weapons, you shouldn't switch when faced with DR5. A weapon 4 higher is the better choice against DR 10, and against DR 15 your weapon would have to be better by 5.
 

Anax said:
Uh.

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. Please see p. 143 of the 3.5 PHB (or the same section from the RSRD). This clears up the rules for this action a lot, contrary to what you suggest. Instead of a strange rule that “if you move but do nothing else, you can avoid attacks of opportunity for the first square you leave”, it’s a completely separate option for a full-round action.

Edit: Also note, in 3.0 you couldn’t move and then draw (or sheathe) a weapon while withdrawing, either. You had to do nothing but move twice your speed to be able to withdraw, not do nothing but move your speed or use a move-equivalent action. See the description of double move on p. 126 of the 3E PHB. Also see the description of “draw a weapon” as a move-equivalent action on p. 128. And note that you’re allowed to combine the draw a weapon move-equivalent action with a regular move if you have a BAB of +1 or higher. (Yes, there is some room for interpretation here. Lots of room, really. And lots of room for confusion, too.)

(I’m very very glad that they completely revamped the definitions for different kinds of actions in 3.5. The old rules were super confusing on many of these points.)
And the 3.5 revisions to them were stupid and pointless.

With Quick Draw you do so as a free action. Thus, it should not interfere with a double move. Check this out from the 3.0 SRD:
If all a character does during that character's turn is make a normal move or a double move (not a run), the space that the character started out in is not considered threatened.
Simple, elegant, and not broken in any way. And I like to point this out with many of the 3.5 "improvements": "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." What's so unrealistic about a person drawing a weapon as part of their movement while they hustle or charge?
 

Sledge said:
okay for the record if your weapon is +1 and flaming you get 4.5 extra damage. If the weapon is +1 flaming frost & shock, then you do 11.5 extra damage. So DR 5 is bettered by a +3 weapon or in other words if your primary weapon is 3 higher in modifiers than your alternate weapons, you shouldn't switch when faced with DR5. A weapon 4 higher is the better choice against DR 10, and against DR 15 your weapon would have to be better by 5.
Of course, then you are also assuming that all of those pluses are 1) taken as abilities, and not +X, 2) Those abilities are all damage dealing, and 3) all of those will damage the target.

So a +4 sword against a DR 10 may not be better,
a +1 wounding keen will not help much against the DR 10 demon
the Holy Mage bane will not do much against the DR 10 neutral creature.

It is true, switching is not always beneficial. But sometimes it is, and QD makes it more possible.
 
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