Fixing Quick Draw

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't understand why people get so fixated on gloves of storing. Most of my characters find gloves of dexterity far more useful. And if they need the ability to quickdraw weapons, most of them can afford to spend the feat. Plus, quickdraw can do a lot of things that a glove of storing can't do. For instance, it's a pretty frequent occurence for my fighter/wizard (currently 17th level) to start a full attack with his wounding guisarme and drop his enemy before he runs out of attacks. At that point, he can drop the guisarme (and his unseen servant picks it up for him), quickdraw his bow, and finish the attack sequence by shooting someone else. Now, if that's the only option he wants, the glove of storing is just fine. However, he also frequently finds that he's fighting close up or fighting undead and wants to use his ghost touch, undead bane longsword instead of the guisarme. He'll drop the guisarme and quickdraw the undead bane longsword at that point. If he were using gloves of storing instead of the quickdraw feat, he'd have to choose one option or the other--only quickdraw enables him to finish off his full attacks with either weapon rather than having to decide in advance which one will be available to him.

You must not allow gloves of storing in your game, as they already do both quick draw and sheathe.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well 4 of your items despite their carefully contrived setup, still don't work. Many are the same thing of throwing a weapon. Most of these require your character to actively be unprepared (i.e. wandering dangerous areas without a weapon drawn) to use, and many of them are only applicable to 2 weapon fighting.

A few notes about these contentions.

1. Wandering dangerous areas without a weapon drawn is not necessarily "actively unprepared." There are a number of reasons a character could want to do this. I have one character (actually a character's cohort) who is a cleric and carries a heavy shield. She doesn't have a weapon drawn because she wants to be able to cast spells in the first round of combat. If she needs to draw a weapon, she will. Of course, she's not very good with weapons of any sort so she generally doesn't. Another character is in a similar situation but does use weapons in nearly every combat. My fighter/cleric/monk/paladin (yeah, I'm pushing the multiclassing envelope with the character) wears a heavy shield and will generally walk around without a weapon drawn because she wants to be able to cast a spell in the first round of combat and then draw a weapon. (She hasn't picked up quickdraw because, as a monk, she's not really unarmed--even then).

Other good reasons not to have a weapon out would be when the character is climbing, walking through a dangerous area (where it pays to have a hand free to grab a rope or the edge of the cliff), or simply doesn't want to be as obviously threatening. (In an area full of dangerous potential opponents, there are going to be some people who aren't necessarily enemies but will shoot first and ask questions later if you've got weapons drawn).

2. Situations that are only applicable to two weapon fighting don't necessarily mean that they're irrelevant. Always being useful to everyone is more commonly said to be the mark of a broken feat than the mark of a good one. Two weapon fighting is only useful to two weapon fighters but that doesn't make it a bad feat. On the more general note, if Quickdraw is only useful to certain kinds of characters in certain situations, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Quicken spell isn't useful for fighters, sorcerers, bards, paladins, rangers, monks, fighters, barbarians, or rogues after all, but it doesn't need beefing up because of that.

 

[Direferret1000]

I've found it useful

Hey, I've found it very useful. But most of the use comes from the combination of quickdraw and flick of the wrist. With it my 6th Level half orc rogue took on two dopplengangers all by his lone self. (The crit helped ). The other use comes into play when using thrown weapons. Without it, you'll only be able to throw one weapon a turn regardless of the number attacks you have in a round.

I don't think it is wise to put a bloody dagger/sword back in it's sheath. That causes problems with rust (and ruins the weapon). You have to wipe off the blood first.

 

[the Jester]

IMHO Quickdraw is fine. I underestimated it til a pc imc took it; then I started taking it for most of my combat pcs. My ranger-rogue-fighter dwarf loves it.

 

[Shape D.]

My current character "Garrett" Ftr5/Rog2/MasterThrower1 Couldn't survive without quick draw. It allows me to make 3 ranged attacks per round, and in the event I get cornered I can switch to my mace, and at the end of my round I can make sure I am armed so I can still take an attack of opportunity if it presents itself.

Now if only I could carry 30 daggers with me at all times. (or just get returning daggers)

 

[Coredump]

Yes indeed 2 gloves of storing will remove 99% of the value of quickdraw

No, it still does not allow throwing weapons, or choosing between more than 2 weapons, and it cannot be dispelled/etc. But other than that.... If you are willing to spend 20K gold you can do most of the rest. Of course, by then you are pretty high level, and you may have other things to spend your gold on.
Hey, a +1 sword is only 4K, and it is much better than weapon focus.... must be another weak feat.

My reference to demons was from harperscouts example.

Yes, and speaking of contrived.... You totally disregard the main point, which is the DR, and focus that it is an evil creature. His point still stands for a neutral creature with DR, your 'solution' does not.In fact, your solution *only* holds if the evil creature has DR 5. So sure, *if* you have a Holy weapon, *and* fighting an evil creature, *and* it's DR is only 5, then keeping the weapon is probably better than switching it out. But for all those people that have a flaming, frost, or keen weapon, or occasionally fight non-evil creatures with DR, or fight creatures with DR of more than 5.... it might be handy to have.

The times when it is beneficial to switch are simply not in the majority.

You must fight an awful lot of DR 5 evil creatures in your games. (assuming all of you have Holy weapons of course.

Okay going to just make a few corrections to the list below because some aren't legitimate uses of quick draw.

Well 4 of your items

Not to be petty... but you only 'corrected' 3. And they were not, in fact, wrong.

5) Charge is *not* a normal move, it is a full round action, you do not get to draw during it.
9a)It is an easy interpretation that readying a shield would also be allowed via quickdraw.
9b) Readying a shield is allowed with the move in any case.
21) Quickdraw can be used with items other than weapons, such as wands.. or potions.

Add to them
26) be able to switch between multiple weapons
27) Run and pull a weapon
28) withdraw and pull a weapon
29) There was another one but now I can't remember... damn.

despite their carefully contrived setup,

Contrived?? You talk about evil DR 5 creatures, against a specific weapon, and call a list of 25 examples contrived? I mention everything from wands to horses, to sunder/disarm, to ranged attacks, to picking up items, to using TWF, to using skills.... yet you call them contrived. I'm not sure that means what you think it means....

... even in these the characters will quickly be able to afford a glove of storing at low levels

Really? At 10K, the earliest they can realistically get *one* is just before 7th level. And that assumes they don't want things like... magic weapons or armor, or stat boosts, or other pesky magic items.

 

[genshou]

Most of the characters I've played using the samurai class from Oriental Adventures took Quick Draw. Combats don't always start at the moment you spot your foe. Sometimes you start adjacent to your opponent, such as when you are attacked inside an inn. At times like that, winning initiative is very significant, as you get to apply iaijutsu focus damage to each attack until that opponent takes their turn. Not getting a full attack action would be such a shame...

And just think how useful it is to the rogue with Improved Initiative and a bow!

 

[Drowbane]

Yeah, I said it. Fixing Quick Draw. Most of you are prolly like, WTF? Well it does need fixing, but not because it's broken, but rather because it's pointless.

Quick question. How many people here have every used a sword and had the sheath? I don't know about you guys, but it only takes me a split second to draw my katana from its sheath, and I'm no trained swordfighting professinal. As such, why should a feat be needed? That and the fact that a lot of weapons can't be realistically sheathed to begin with (warhammer, greataxe, greatsword,etc.).

Let's assume, though, that there is a point to Quick Draw. The problem then is that it's pitifully weak. So I look and notice that "stow weapon" is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Perfect! See the fix?

If not, here it is. Quick Draw should allow not only the drawing of a weapon as a free action, but should also allow one to stow it as a free action without suffering an attack of opportunity. I do know that stowing a weapon takes more time than drawing it, so this is a perfect way to fix it, and nothing at all is thrown off-balance by it. The name might be weird for it, but it'd be a worthy feat at least. (I mean how often is it used? Very few combats start with your opponent within 5 feet, so you'd have to take a move action anyway, and drawing a weapon is part of a move action.

I would also proposed that drawing a weapon and readying a shield should be doable in the same action, or clerics would never be using them at all. Weapons and shields get in the way of somantic components after all (although I house ruled already that a cleric can cast even with a weapon and shield by virtue of my rule that somantic components for Divine spells take only one hand, so a cleric can hang the shield from his arm while switching the weapon to the hand and using the free hand for a moment to cast). I also think two-weapon fighting should allow drawing both weapons as one.

So how about it? Sound good? All of it?

IMC:

Quick Draw: Draw weapon as an immediate action, sheathe as a free action.

Makes it great for AoO's...

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Drowbane.. .. Draw as Immediate Action for AoO?

As in you are unarmed and an opponent walks past you.. you get to draw the weapon with which you use as an AoO?

As long as you know this is not RAW, as you need to threaten the opponent in order to be eligible for taking an AoO in the first place.. and can lead to interesting circumstances with reach weapons...

Sledge I do allow gloves of storing in my game... they can be powerful yet are limited in other ways. And my current group of 4th level characters will not be finding/buying one anytime soon.
I don't see QuickDraw needing a boost, and would allow a QuickSheathe feat if a player asked. Honestly it doesn't come up much IMC but I posted upthread as it appeared most posters were ignoring the potential complications of reach/whirlwind attack/etc.. when considering the option.
People complain about the Spiked Chain being a broken weapon and this HR variant of Quickdraw provides the same mechanical advantage to a properly outfitted character.
If the first is considered broken, and the second emulates the first...perhaps the second is broken as well.

Quickdraw, as written, is a great feat for certain types of character builds.

Anyway, JMHO and all them "only a polite disagreement" caveats

 

[hagor]

Quickdraw is not a weak feat. Lots of people take it, and it has several advantages.

I agree.

In the 'city of the spider queen'-campaign I'm in, most of our party has this feat, including my character, a halfling archer.

Last fight I have used this feat quite extensively: changed from bow, to short shord & (ring of force) shield [when cornered by attacker] and then to long sword (used twohanded).

And of course there is the coolness factor: by the time the DM is finished saying "Suddenly you are attacked by..." we have changed from peaceful wandering people to mean, armed & dangerous fighting machines!

Anyway, my 0.02

Hagor