Fixing Quick Draw

[Aust Diamondew]

Quick draw is a very popular feat in my games (I have one player who almost always takes it and a couple others who take it with about 1/3 their characters). Being able to draw sword and shield in one round and then charge an opponent to attack is great. PCs don't always walk around with their weapons drawn or the weapon they need drawn.

I do not think it needs fixing.

 

[Coredump]

Quickdraw is not a weak feat. Lots of people take it, and it has several advantages.

Quick Sheathe may be an okay second feat, but it also allows some very powerful (broken?) combinations

 

[Sledge]

I (much to my group's chagrin) am constantly making use of the quick-draw feat. As stated, I generally have to change weapons for a myriad of reasons. Here is how it goes. I am a Scout from the CA.

Okay you're actually using it less than you think due to the rule that you can draw a weapon for free during a move action.

- Round 1: Move full move to get into long bow range. Long bow out, attempting to do some early damage. - Without quick draw, I couldn't move and then shoot.

Even if the bow wasn't already out, you could draw it for free as part of the move action. No quickdraw here.

- Round 2: Must move at least 10 feet (Scout), drop my long bow, draw my long sword, and attack. - Thanks to quick draw, I get an attack

You moved, so you get to draw your weapon for free.

- Round 3: Cornered, can't move my 10 feet, draw my short sword to fight with two weapons - Thanks to quick draw, I can get both attacks.

Okay here you have an instance of quickdraw. You use quickdraw in fights where you back yourself into a corner and can't move. Of course you could have used quickdraw in the previous round and had both weapons out already. Of course if you only use one sword there is no use for quickdraw here.

- Round 4: Realize I am fighting something with damage reduction, drop the short sword, draw the cold iron dagger. Thanks to quick draw, I still get two attacks.

Keeping a full attack while switching weapons is indeed the primary use for quickdraw. Of course even investing in backup weapons is debatable compared to just getting a better primary weapon.

- Round 5: Ranger drops: -6 HP. Thanks to quick draw, I drop the long sword (non-magical), draw the wand, stab the demon, move 10 feet.

Assuming you stabbed the demon with the dagger, you can still draw your wand for free as part of your move.

- Round 6: discharge the wand on the Ranger I moved next to (I used the wand because I was also a Nenthyr Hunter from Unapproachable East Book in FR).

Don't see any quickdraw reference here.

You see the point I am trying to make. This is a real senario that happened to our group last session just two weeks ago. Admittedly, my character requires about an hour to retrieve all his weapons after combat, that are scattered about the field, but thanks to quick draw I was able to really maximize my situations.

So you used quickdraw twice actually in the entire combat. Once is only because you have two-weapon fighting. The second because you made a judgement that the 5-10 DR of the demon would be defeated by the dagger. The first is just another cost of the two-weapon fighting system that is already innately inferior to the two-handed fighting. The second is a value judgement that is only correct at low levels when a primary weapon will have no modifiers. For instance a +1 Holy Sword will deal an average of 8 more damage against that demon than your unenhanced weapon. This will generally be more damage that the DR and the 2d6 holy gets through automatically. Again however a two-weapon fighter will find that he needs this feat at low and medium levels until his equipment is powerful enough.

So the feat as is has 2 uses currently, 1 you're a two-weapon and are paying lots of feats for the "cool" factor. It doesn't matter that you're paying for the privelege of being less effective, you're "cool". 2 is to switch weapons during combat while retaining a full attack. This is again not usually the optimal choice even as a free action because getting 1 extra attack this round with an inferior weapon is a worse choice than skipping the attack and keeping the useful weapon for further rounds. So really 2 is to retain a full attack when you have been disarmed or sundered. Of course a glove of storing is only 10,000 gp to completely negate the usefulness of this feat.

So do I think quickdraw is underpowered. Definitely. Its just a good way to waste your feats. I still take it though. I like being "cool" after all.

 

[Sledge]

Quick Draw is the way it is for game mechanics reasons...
if you can quick-sheath weapons as a free action...Fighter carrying a LSword and Reach Weapon..
Consider for a moment the implications with...
Whirlwind Attack....
or
Great Cleave {or whatever teh one is that lets you step 5'}...
Quick Sheath is not a good idea.

You must not allow gloves of storing in your game, as they already do both quick draw and sheathe.

 

[Stalker0]

I also agree that quickdraw is fine as a feat.

But this guy doesn't agree, and apparantely his players don't either as they don't seem to use it.

So, this house rule is fine. It doesn't break anything, it just fine, go with it.

 

[Coredump]

You must not allow gloves of storing in your game, as they already do both quick draw and sheathe.

Magic items are inherrently worth less then being able to do it without magic. Plus, it would take 2 of them to be able to do part of what quick draw/sheathe would let you do. (Switch back and forth in the same round.)

For instance a +1 Holy Sword will deal an average of 8 more damage against that demon than your unenhanced weapon.

Wow. So IF you know you are fighting demons, and IF you can get a +1 holy sword, then against SOME opponents it wouild be better to not switch.
Of course, if your main weapon has keen, or flaming, or such, then it is still better to switch. And if the DR creature isn't evil, it is better to switch. But IF you will only ever fight evil creatures with DR, and you can get a Holy weapon, then quickdraw isn't as helpful. Gotcha.


1) In melee, weapon gets sundered, can draw another
2) In melee, weapon gets disarmed, can draw another.
3) Break into room, get surprise; can throw weapon and draw another.
4) Throw many weapons, keep drawing them.
5) Can draw a weapon, and charge.
6) Can do full attack, then draw and throw (or throw and draw) with Rapid Shot
7) sheathe sword, draw dagger, throw dagger, draw sword
8) use bow, when bad guys close, drop bow, draw weapon, full attack.
9) Ready your shield, draw your weapon, move and attack
10) Load light crossbow, fire, ready reach weapon
11) Dismount your horse, pull your wand and attack
12) Actively try and spot an opponent, draw weapon, and throw
13) Get surprised attacked, draw weapon and full attack in return.
14) Switch weapons, and still get full attack.
15) Add a weapon, and still get full attack.
16) Draw hand axe, throw axe, draw another, pick something up from floor.
17) Draw dagger, throw dagger, move away drawing another weapon.
18) Stand up, draw weapon, attack.
19) Draw trip weapon, trip, draw better weapon, attack
20) Draw disarming weapon, disarm, draw better weapon, attack
21) Get a potion, drink it, move and draw weapon
22) Open the door, throw a weapon, draw a weapon
23) Cast full round spell, draw weapon
24) Use reach weapon, when they close in, drop and draw sword, full attack
25) Can use Enhance ability, and battlemind, and still draw your lightsaber.


Some of these are pretty specific situations... but there are 25 of them. And some of them come up fairly often, and especially if you know you can do it. Quick draw has different benefits for high or low level characters, and has no prereqs. Not sure why anyone would think it was underpowered. But hey, do whatever you want in your game.

 

[Sledge]

Magic items are inherrently worth less then being able to do it without magic. Plus, it would take 2 of them to be able to do part of what quick draw/sheathe would let you do. (Switch back and forth in the same round.)

Yes indeed 2 gloves of storing will remove 99% of the value of quickdraw

Wow. So IF you know you are fighting demons, and IF you can get a +1 holy sword, then against SOME opponents it wouild be better to not switch.
Of course, if your main weapon has keen, or flaming, or such, then it is still better to switch. And if the DR creature isn't evil, it is better to switch. But IF you will only ever fight evil creatures with DR, and you can get a Holy weapon, then quickdraw isn't as helpful. Gotcha.

My reference to demons was from harperscouts example. In any case in any good (alignment) game 90% of your opponents SHOULD be evil, or your not really playing all that good (alignment) of a campaign. Keen, flaming, or even straight plusses all improve the quality of the weapon. My point in this regard is that when your character has a good weapon, that weapon will frequently be better against DR than a poor weapon that gets through the DR. Without DR obviously there is no reason to switch. The times when it is beneficial to switch are simply not in the majority.
Okay going to just make a few corrections to the list below because some aren't legitimate uses of quick draw.

1) In melee, weapon gets sundered, can draw another
2) In melee, weapon gets disarmed, can draw another.
3) Break into room, get surprise; can throw weapon and draw another. (Assuming you mean to draw the weapon after you break into the room otherwise you didn't use the feat)
4) Throw many weapons, keep drawing them.
5) Can draw a weapon, and charge. Does not require quick draw
6) Can do full attack, then draw and throw (or throw and draw) with Rapid Shot
7) sheathe sword, draw dagger, throw dagger, draw sword
8) use bow, when bad guys close, drop bow, draw weapon, full attack.
9) Ready your shield, draw your weapon, move and attack Cannot be done. You've taken two move actions, and got to draw the weapon for free without the feat anyway.
10) Load light crossbow, fire, ready reach weapon
11) Dismount your horse, pull your wand and attack
12) Actively try and spot an opponent, draw weapon, and throw
13) Get surprised attacked, draw weapon and full attack in return.
14) Switch weapons, and still get full attack. (why switch?)
15) Add a weapon, and still get full attack. (why add a weapon in the first place?)
16) Draw hand axe, throw axe, draw another, pick something up from floor.
17) Draw dagger, throw dagger, move away drawing another weapon. (why don't you already have a weapon in hand?)
18) Stand up, draw weapon, attack.
19) Draw trip weapon, trip, draw better weapon, attack (now your tripping weapon is on the floor.)
20) Draw disarming weapon, disarm, draw better weapon, attack (now your disarming weapon is on the floor.)
21) Get a potion, drink it, move and draw weapon Cannot be done. You've taken 2 move actions and a standard action.
22) Open the door, throw a weapon, draw a weapon.
23) Cast full round spell, draw weapon (why not have the weapon ready in advance?)
24) Use reach weapon, when they close in, drop and draw sword, full attack (why not take the 5' step?)
25) Can use Enhance ability, and battlemind, and still draw your lightsaber. Not playing Star Wars, we're playing D&D.


Some of these are pretty specific situations... but there are 25 of them.

Well 4 of your items despite their carefully contrived setup, still don't work. Many are the same thing of throwing a weapon. Most of these require your character to actively be unprepared (i.e. wandering dangerous areas without a weapon drawn) to use, and many of them are only applicable to 2 weapon fighting.
The only ones that seem to work are the ones where a move action is not going to happen, but even in these the characters will quickly be able to afford a glove of storing at low levels that will eliminate almost all of the convoluted uses of quick draw above. At higher levels a second glove of storing will render the rest of the useless and then some.

 

[ResurectedLlama]

I don't think quick draw was ever too weak but adding quick sheething doesn't overpower it anyway.

 

[Nyaricus]

The situations you described don't happen all that often in the course of a normal adventure.

heh heh . . . . sounds like a tactical feat is needed here (dammit, i hate those things )

more comments to come . . .

 

[Sledge]

I think I was a little too sleepy during my last post. To recap I think quick draw is underpowered, especially at low levels (1-5) and high levels (11-20) and nigh useless at epic levels. For the low levels this is simply due to the fact the very few applications will require it when a full attack is just an attack. Once you pass level 10 you become more and more able to get a better effect from a 10,000 gp magic item. In epic levels quick draw becomes yet another low level feat that you end up having to make excuses just to use.
However I haven't changed it in my campaigns yet because it is a necessary feat for certain types of characters at certain levels and it has a cool feel to it.

A good house rule might be to have a special option where once a round a character can sheathe a weapon for free if the character has the requisite BAB to put this character at a minimum of 10th level. Anyone with Two Weapon Fighting would of course be able to sheathe 2 weapons.

The problem with this feats really aren't supposed to improve with levels. Any thought in this regard?