Fixing Quick Draw

[Storyteller01]

First off, when on an adventure, wouldn't weapons always be at a ready-to-use position? Much like a cop draws his gun before moving into a dangerous area? In these cases, Quick Draw is quite obviously pointless, or at least not very useful given the good stuff possible can't be done until higher levels. Everything else seems balanced to me, the situations you described.

Depends on your game and environ. The school I go to has a technique that enables you to draw while making it look like you've been stretching. It's a technique used while standing guard (in a possibly dangerous situation). The obvious reason is to fool an enemy, but it's difficult to pull off. Another good reason: you sense a threat and react covertly. This saves you the embarrassment of drawing a weapon on your lord (or worse, his son) while still allowing for an effective parry or counterstrike if the need arises.

Also, police aren't quite so itchy to draw their pistol before hand. Too much bad press at the moment. They do have their holsters unsnapped and ready...

So what we're left with is having to deal with a whole lot of drawing, tons of silly attacks of opportunity when putting stuff away, and mages not being able to wield weapons and cast spells in the same combat. This is something that should really be alleviated. My fix helps the warrior side, and my house rule helps the spellcasters. This, in turn, moves combat along more swiftly, which prevents it from dragging along.

How about that?

If this is your goal, then go for it. Enjoy . Just think it through if your goal is realism. How many soldiers do you see stowing a weapon, as opposed to dropping it to retrieve another? Why do they choose this option if everyone can quickstow/draw? Why do these same soldiers stop what they're doing to use a grenade (a modern example of fireball, including somatic and material components)?

Another example: how many police officers can reach their secondary sidearm (if they have one) if disarmed and already in hand to hand combat? What happens if they try? How many have to receive training to make this a viable option?

 

[Anubis]

Coredump, if I ignore your supposed "points", it's because you're just trying to spin things. I ignore spin. The spin stops here.

Now back to Storyteller01, about the cops, I'd say that it's like the rules suggest; they can't draw except during their own turn, but then it is a free action.

I dunno.

Maybe the final point I could make is, although you have a point that Quick Draw may be realistic, I still think it should allow you to sheathe for free as well. That is my original point. I can't see any realistic reason not to.

 

[Coredump]

Coredump, if I ignore your supposed "points", it's because you're just trying to spin things. I ignore spin. The spin stops here.

Oh give me a break Anubis. I directly responded to your *exact* logic, and you dont like it. You have no way of defending your (at times) ludicrous 'logic', so now you will blame it on something else.

I called them out in detail, even numbered them for you, and still you are afraid to even try to back up what you say. but you still can whine that people are 'missing your point'. The reason I continued, eventhough I knew you would never respond, was to make it *obvious* that you will systematically ignore anything that makes you or your point, look bad. And now you have done it. Thanks.

Each 'reason' you have provided, has been shown false. (and not just by me.) So each reason, you abondanded, and when you finally ran out of reasons, you start calling names. "Oh, you are spinning things, I am above that." You have gotten transparent on this Anubis. Either back up what you say, or admit you were wrong. I have been patient and invested time in this, and yet you still turn your back and cover your ears when you don't want to hear it.

Come on, address one to the *points* that you wanted us to address... come on, I dare you....

Maybe the final point I could make is, although you have a point that Quick Draw may be realistic, I still think it should allow you to sheathe for free as well. That is my original point. I can't see any realistic reason not to.

You keep making thngs up. *THAT* is the definition of 'spin', trying to change reality to fit what you want to say today. Versus what you actually said before.
Your *original* point was (And I quote you...)

Quick question. How many people here have every used a sword and had the sheath? I don't know about you guys, but it only takes me a split second to draw my katana from its sheath, and I'm no trained swordfighting professinal. As such, why should a feat be needed?

*THAT* was your orignial quote. That "If Anubis can do it, then everyone can do it" I *addressed that point, 2 or 3 times, directly, with not spin; but you have ignored it."
Your *second* point was

That and the fact that a lot of weapons can't be realistically sheathed to begin with (warhammer, greataxe, greatsword,etc.).

And that was directly addressed by a few people, and you tried to respond, but when more people gave examples, you started ignoring it also.
Your *third* point was

Let's assume, though, that there is a point to Quick Draw. The problem then is that it's pitifully weak.

That was trounce by several people, and literally *dozens* of examples given. Not only did you start ignoring this, you started denying that it didn't matter, it was not your point. (page two, about halfway down.)
It was your *fourth* point

Quick Draw should allow not only the drawing of a weapon as a free action, but should also allow one to stow it as a free action without suffering an attack of opportunity.

Not your original point, not your main point, but your fourth point.
So fine, lets address that

I still think it should allow you to sheathe for free as well.

As always, you are free to do whatever you want in your own game. But when you present it here, you will get opinions on its balance or whatever.
So, in the middle of combat, without taking any attention, you think it is reasonable to use only one hand to get a sword back into the little hole in the sheath? While moving around, and the sheath is bouncing on your hip?
From thinking about it, it seems pretty difficult.
From doing it, it seems very difficult to me. (and that is not even while movine or during combat. Just stand there and do it one handed, without paying attention to something else.)
From balance.... it will not 'break' a game, but then, most things by themselves don't break a game.

 

[Storyteller01]

Now back to Storyteller01, about the cops, I'd say that it's like the rules suggest; they can't draw except during their own turn, but then it is a free action.

I dunno.

Maybe the final point I could make is, although you have a point that Quick Draw may be realistic, I still think it should allow you to sheathe for free as well. That is my original point. I can't see any realistic reason not to.

Well, I can present one theory.

In Iai, you sheath slowly (compared to their skill) for combat awareness. It is the point where you are most vulnerable (you're tired, injured, and the blade isn't a threat to anyone). In game terms, you can stow quickly, but choose to sheath as a move action to negates AoO's (those that attempt to neutralize a blade get a wrist lock or throw, those that attack from behind get a blade in the chest, etc). You can sheath quickly (ie, as a free action), but the risk returns.


So yes, if you can draw quickly you can stow just as quickly. The problem is, the risks outway the benefits. Perhaps a second homebrew feat is needed for the effect you want?

 

[Anubis]

Coredump, there you go spinning things again. If I ignore a point, it's because you put spin on it and your logic just doesn't hold up in practice. Anyone who can read can see what my intention was, although I admit I'm not good at presenting things that aren't epic fantasy in and of themselves (the only thing I do know how to write, i.e. epic novels). I ignored that spin because it was invalid. When I did respond, you claimed I ignored the important parts of your post. How ludicrous.

I was considering just humoring you and showing you how wrong you were (such as those examples of usefullness being very rare in terms of actual gaming, or that some of the points peopel presented were just wrong such as with sheathing larger weapons), but you bore me. I'll say the one thing that matters here: I won't respond because I feel you have no valid points to respond to.

Now to the good poster here, Storyteller01. You could take lessons from that one, Coredump. Anyway, Storyteller01, I think you actually came up with a reasonable idea there. Using Quick Draw, move action with no attack of oppotunity or free action with an attack of opportunity. Another feat to quick sheathe at no penalty.

 

[Storyteller01]

Coredump, there you go spinning things again. If I ignore a point, it's because you put spin on it and your logic just doesn't hold up in practice. Anyone who can read can see what my intention was, although I admit I'm not good at presenting things that aren't epic fantasy in and of themselves (the only thing I do know how to write, i.e. epic novels). I ignored that spin because it was invalid. When I did respond, you claimed I ignored the important parts of your post. How ludicrous.

I was considering just humoring you and showing you how wrong you were (such as those examples of usefullness being very rare in terms of actual gaming, or that some of the points peopel presented were just wrong such as with sheathing larger weapons), but you bore me. I'll say the one thing that matters here: I won't respond because I feel you have no valid points to respond to.

Now to the good poster here, Storyteller01. You could take lessons from that one, Coredump. Anyway, Storyteller01, I think you actually came up with a reasonable idea there. Using Quick Draw, move action with no attack of oppotunity or free action with an attack of opportunity. Another feat to quick sheathe at no penalty.

WHOOAAA TRIGGER!!!!!!!!!!!

Much as I appreciate the compliment, I DO NOT want to be in the middle of this. Anubis and Coredump, both of you have issues with the topic that need resolving or an agreement to disagree. I like a good debate, but I don't like where you guys are going with this. I REALLY don't want to be made a target for it.

Can you guys just shake on it and grumble softly or something??

 

[Coredump]

Coredump, there you go spinning things again. If I ignore a point, it's because you put spin on it and your logic just doesn't hold up in practice.

Or.... because you have no decent response.

Lets make it simple. Lets take *one* example,and see if you can respond to it.

You believe that all characters should have QD because you can quickly pull a weapon.
According to that, since you can do something, the characters should be able to do something. I don't think that is 'spin', I think that is exactly what you stated.
You also stated that you can attack (at least) 4 times in 6 seconds. So, doesn't that mean that all characters should be able to attack (at least) 4 times in one round?

Again, I don't think I am spinning anything, I am using your logic, as you stated it. Logic should be able to be applied in different scenarios. So if "anubis can do it" is good enough to allow QD, shouldn't it be a good enough reason to allow 4 attacks per round?

Please, either answer this, or at least explain how I have 'spun' any of this.

 

[Coredump]

I like a good debate, but I don't like where you guys are going with this.

ST, I wasn't going to respond to this, since I don't want to put you into the middle. But you did include me in the above statement.

I was just hoping you could clarify for me what I was doing that you object to. If you could show me where I have twisted his words, or attacked his character, or ignored his points, or any 'bad faith' debating, I will apologize. I have been trying to address his points, and use his premises as much as possible. My only error, that I see, is that a wiser man would have walked away from this conversation, since he seems dead set against actually discussing/debating any of his own points. (Or at least anything that might be against what he is saying.)

 

[Anubis]

Or.... because you have no decent response.

Lets make it simple. Lets take *one* example,and see if you can respond to it.

You believe that all characters should have QD because you can quickly pull a weapon.
According to that, since you can do something, the characters should be able to do something. I don't think that is 'spin', I think that is exactly what you stated.
You also stated that you can attack (at least) 4 times in 6 seconds. So, doesn't that mean that all characters should be able to attack (at least) 4 times in one round?

Well, since you like to spin things against me, I guess I have no choice but to humor you and response to this ridiculous statement.

Yes, I stated I could draw and make four attacks in a round. Have you given any thought as to why others haven't tried to attack this point? It's really very simple. The rules even state why. One "attack" is assumed to be several attempted attacks at once, and that's stated in the book. The higher your BAB, the more of those multiple attacks are assumed to have any chance of hitting.

My point in stating that was that, in D&D terms, out of fairness I would likely be a Level 1 Commoner. I may fancy myself a decent fighter and better than that, but making it real, I'm not officially trained nor am I a soldier or valiant knight of the old days. Yet, as a Level 1 Commoner, I can effectively "quick draw" (although I can't personally quick sheathe, which is why I felt that's what should truly be included in the Quick Draw feat) and I can make several attacks in the course of six seconds; as such, why should someone who should be FAR more capable than me (anyone having levels in most core classes in fact) and thus able to do everything I can do and more.

Basically, you take things too literally. Other people here didn't raise the garbage you raised because they've read the books and they knew what I was trying to get at. I'm not good at presentation of this stuff, so if you take my words absolutely literally, you'll miss the entire point. Others were able to figure it out (even though several disagreed, at least they didn't go on about silly crap like you have), yet you decided to put spin on things by using the most literal meaning of what I said, and you really should know better than to follow literal words verbatum, especially even after I admitted I'm not very good at presentation (except of course in epic novels, and this isn't an epic novel), yet you still pushed it.

See how bad I am at presentation? A better orator could have probably said all that in a few sentences, but I always go into such elaborate responses, and that undoubtedly just creates more confusion. Still, I'm not here to make things simple for people who don't understand the first time. Storyteller01, I praised you because, from what I could read, you actually understood exactly what I was talking about and discussed it in a logical manner; also see how nice a discussion it was compared to how I'm having to deal with coredump.

Basically, people who take things literally should just stay out of discussions with me, I don't have the patience for people like that.

 

[genshou]

Well, since you like to spin things against me, I guess I have no choice but to humor you and response to this ridiculous statement.

Yes, I stated I could draw and make four attacks in a round. Have you given any thought as to why others haven't tried to attack this point? It's really very simple. The rules even state why. One "attack" is assumed to be several attempted attacks at once, and that's stated in the book. The higher your BAB, the more of those multiple attacks are assumed to have any chance of hitting.

My point in stating that was that, in D&D terms, out of fairness I would likely be a Level 1 Commoner. I may fancy myself a decent fighter and better than that, but making it real, I'm not officially trained nor am I a soldier or valiant knight of the old days. Yet, as a Level 1 Commoner, I can effectively "quick draw" (although I can't personally quick sheathe, which is why I felt that's what should truly be included in the Quick Draw feat) and I can make several attacks in the course of six seconds; as such, why should someone who should be FAR more capable than me (anyone having levels in most core classes in fact) and thus able to do everything I can do and more.

Basically, you take things too literally. Other people here didn't raise the garbage you raised because they've read the books and they knew what I was trying to get at. I'm not good at presentation of this stuff, so if you take my words absolutely literally, you'll miss the entire point. Others were able to figure it out (even though several disagreed, at least they didn't go on about silly crap like you have), yet you decided to put spin on things by using the most literal meaning of what I said, and you really should know better than to follow literal words verbatum, especially even after I admitted I'm not very good at presentation (except of course in epic novels, and this isn't an epic novel), yet you still pushed it.

See how bad I am at presentation? A better orator could have probably said all that in a few sentences, but I always go into such elaborate responses, and that undoubtedly just creates more confusion. Still, I'm not here to make things simple for people who don't understand the first time. Storyteller01, I praised you because, from what I could read, you actually understood exactly what I was talking about and discussed it in a logical manner; also see how nice a discussion it was compared to how I'm having to deal with coredump.

Basically, people who take things literally should just stay out of discussions with me, I don't have the patience for people like that.

Everyone who responded to your points (myself and Coredump included) did so only based on the logic you yourself provided, and none of us are 'putting a spin' on any of it. You shouldn't be calling out in such a hostile manner, either.

If this is going to continue at all, a moderator may have to close the thread. There doesn't seem to be anything of worth left to be said on the topic.

If you want actual discussion of the subject matter, however, I'll respond to your statement with the following:

Just because you can draw a sword and swing it around quickly doesn't mean you are doing so in any effective way whatsoever. When a character makes an attack roll, it represents an attack or series of attacks which have an actual chance of doing something. So you are right that a higher base attack bonus means you are making more of those attacks actually have a chance of meaning something.