Fixing Quick Draw

[Storyteller01]

Cool! Thanks a bunch.

 

[BASHMAN]

Because I think that Improved initiative is not enough, I also give anyone with quickdraw a +2 init bonus on top of what they get (stacks with improved init).

In my mind it makes sense because if you can draw a weapon that fast, why are you taking so long to start doing stuff with it?


I also likeed the way that Savage Worlds deals with quickdraw. Anyone can quickdraw, but if they do, they have a penalty on their attack roll. Quickdraw just makes it so that you can attack without penalty when you draw a weapon.

 

[genshou]

Can't change your mind, so I won't try. I do suggest that you find and speak with an Iaido or Iaijutsu practioner, maybe even practice with them with basic cuts only. You may find that you're speed and ability may not be an appropriate comparison. (Not attempting to be hostile).

Right you are on this one. I used to do mock battles with a friend of mine. We used padded weapons; he was using a broadsword and I was using a katana. He spotted me around a corner, drew his broadsword, and charged. I dodged his blow and then drew and attacked in a single, fluid motion. My padded blade slammed into his side just below his ribcage before he could even react to my dodge.

The best way to put it is that I can draw the katana in under a second (timed with a stopwatch) and initiate a good slash/defelct/thrust/parry routine in short order.

Right, and the difference is that we're talking about the art of drawing and attacking in the same motion, not drawing and then attacking "in short order". My friend had no idea I was capable of moving that fast, which meant he wasn't expecting my weapon to be out in the first place. The fact of the matter is, unless you are taking an absolutely negligible amount of time to draw your weapon, you're going to have to consider it a move-equivalent action. It's true that a Tiny weapon should be able to be drawn faster than a greatsword, but that would require you to rework the entire 2-action combat system.

 

[Anubis]

Please not, Quick Draw does *not* mean you can pull out a weapon fast. It means that you can pull out a weapon so fast, and so smooth, and with such great body mechanics and/or subterfuge, that it is the *exact same* as if you had it out the whole time. I assert that you cannot do that, and further, that you have no way of knowing if you can.

After reading all of that, this is the sticking point that I think you're incorrect on. Quick Draw doesn't mean you're equally defended with your weapon sheathed or drawn. If that were the case, people with Quick Draw and a sheathed weapon would still get attacks of opportunity; by the rules, they don't. It would have to be an immediate action (IIRC) for that to be the case.

Quick Draw is a free action, and free actions can only be taken during your own turn. That means that I would only need to be able to attack as many times and as effectively with a weapon sheathed at the start of six seconds as I could with it drawn at the start of the same six seconds. I do maintain that I can do that.

Can't change your mind, so I won't try. I do suggest that you find and speak with an Iaido or Iaijutsu practioner, maybe even practice with them with basic cuts only. You may find that you're speed and ability may not be an appropriate comparison. (Not attempting to be hostile).

I understand. I just maintain that the styles you speak of would be, D&D-wise, equal to the Iajutsu Master prestige class, not the Quick Draw feat.

One thing though:

please, please, PLEASE for the love of god pay attention to how you draw. The strength of a saya (scabbard), being made of wood, is illusury. The outside is strengthed with laquer and other treatments. The inside is left untreated so that it remains soft. This keeps it from dulling your blade.

Everytime you draw incorrectly, your blade bites and drags into soft wood. This is made worse when you're appling power for a cut. The added leverage forces the blade further into the wood. This wear thins the wood of the saya. There's only about 3/8 of an inch of wood between you and the blade to begin with. It WILL give if you don't pay strict attention! Make a science out of it!!!

Didn't know that. I've been using my katana (real katana, real sheath) for months now and this hasn't happened. I always take care not to force the katana to the outside while drawing. I usually (unless I can't) draw with my body to the side, turning myself as I do, pulling away at the scabbard as I draw and (if I'm attempting to strike as I draw) making a quick slash upwards (as I said, from about the kidney to the armpit) before going two-handed (my arms are weak, so I'm not good at wielding anything one-handed) and into normal routine. I still have power despite my arms being weak, which is kinda odd, but I digress.

I guess I've been doing it right, eh? I didn't know that, though. I just figured that you could lose control if you pull too far to the outside (centrifical [sp?] force) too quickly, so I always pull out straight with a turning motion from the side. Wish I could describe it better for you, but the lingo you speak goes over my head.

 

[Coredump]

After reading all of that, this is the sticking point that I think you're incorrect on.

Hmmm.... this sounds familiar...at least in tone. Perhaps I have addressed this earlier... ah yes, here it is.

Well, that is partly because you ignore the parts of the posts that refute your point, and sometimes consider the minutia of an opposing view, while ignoring the meat.

So, once again, you totally ignore the vast part of the post that addresses your logic, and choose to *only* address one small part that you think you can refute. At least you are consistent.

]Quick Draw doesn't mean you're equally defended with your weapon sheathed or drawn. If that were the case, people with Quick Draw and a sheathed weapon would still get attacks of opportunity; by the rules, they don't.

I even thought of AoO while writing, but figured you wouldn't bother with such an obviously small part of my overall point, I was wrong. I addressed your two 'points', like you asked, and you ignored it.

It would have to be an immediate action (IIRC) for that to be the case.

Incorrect, that still would not allow it.

I would only need to be able to attack as many times and as effectively with a weapon sheathed at the start of six seconds as I could with it drawn at the start of the same six seconds. I do maintain that I can do that.

Really?? You are stating that? So, in 6 seconds you can draw, and get 4 attacks. But if you already had the blade out, you couild still only get 4 attacks?

I do maintain that I can do that.

But you also say you can get (at least) 4 attacks in 6 seconds, are you going to houserule 4/round also? And don't forget to give everyone Rapid shot also.

Just curious,when you do these 'experiments', how is your sheath attached to your belt? Where is your left hand? Your right?

pulling away at the scabbard as I draw

Ah.... so it takes you *two* hands to draw... interesting. And let me guess, you 'know' you are going to be drawing the blade, so your hands are already on the grip/scabbard when the 'stopwatch' is started. Good guess?
So try this, attach the scabbard to a belt, leave your hands off of it, start the stopwatch, and only use one hand to draw. *Now* see if

I do maintain that I can do that.

Then try this, as above, draw the weapon, attack, then drop the weapon, and draw a different one (one handed) and then attack... see how that works out for you.

I still have power despite my arms being weak, which is kinda odd, but I digress.

How do you know you have power? What are you hitting?

 

[Storyteller01]

Actually, drawing a katana with both hands does improve speed. Blade goes forward, saya goes back and around. Gets the blade out twice as fast as a one handed draw. This is why most left handed draws (one handed by nessecity) start with a feint, move, or deflection before the strike. Your left should always be on your saya with your thumb on the tsuba, locking the blade in place (unless your sitting).

I agree with Coredump about the arms though. If you feel the power in your arms, odds are your 'flicking' the blade. While it feels powerful, it's an ineffective way to cut, with no real power at all. Take a few whacks at tatami or bamboo before you judge your abilities.

 

[Coredump]

Actually, drawing a katana with both hands does improve speed.

Of course it does, I agree. But that is an 'extra' that is not required by QD. So to say "I am as fast as QD" means that you can do it starting with hands at neutral, and only using one hand....just like QD allows.

This is why most left handed draws (one handed by nessecity) start with a feint, move, or deflection before the strike.

Again, I can agree, but you do not have to do this if you have QD. (I know we are mixing player and character, but that is Anubis's point.)

 

[Storyteller01]

Seems like we're getting off track though.

To Anubis: IMHO, basing rules changes off of what a person in real life can do is problematic. Yes, you can draw in the manner you describe, but do you believe that your ability is in keeping with the spirit of the intended rule?

In this world, you can draw in less than a second and get 4 good strikes in less than 6 seconds. Also in this world is a martial artist who can draw a dagger and get between 20 to 30 accurate bleeding/tendon/fatal attacks in well under 6 seconds (It's closer to 3). Some Kenpo masters claim to be even faster.

A typical Enworld subscriber can easily launch 2 arrows in 6 seconds fairly accurately. However, a Turkish archer with shortbow could lob 5 arrows in about 3 to 4 seconds, very accurately... and on horseback.

In D&D, an average person only gets only one attack every 6 seconds. Drawing a weapon for such an attack takes a move action (around three seconds). Obviously, we are faster than this. Characters are not for ease of play (can you imagine rolling for 30 attacks!?), and have abilities built to this scale. Some things we're inclined to tweak (to me, the new weapon sizing rules are bogus ), but we have to take this into account.

My third and fourth cent.

 

[Anubis]

So you'd rather me look at it from a rules-technical standpoint then? I can do that.

During play, it takes extra time to deal with everyone and everything having sheathed weapons, taking the weapons out, what kind of actions are needed, putting them away, casting spells, etc. etc. etc.

First off, when on an adventure, wouldn't weapons always be at a ready-to-use position? Much like a cop draws his gun before moving into a dangerous area? In these cases, Quick Draw is quite obviously pointless, or at least not very useful given the good stuff possible can't be done until higher levels. Everything else seems balanced to me, the situations you described.

So what we're left with is having to deal with a whole lot of drawing, tons of silly attacks of opportunity when putting stuff away, and mages not being able to wield weapons and cast spells in the same combat. This is something that should really be alleviated. My fix helps the warrior side, and my house rule helps the spellcasters. This, in turn, moves combat along more swiftly, which prevents it from dragging along.

How about that?

 

[Coredump]

So you'd rather me look at it from a rules-technical standpoint then? I can do that.

Huh??!!?? What are you talking about?
(EDIT: I am loathe to even ask, because it is likely to give Anubis something to answer instead of the rest of the post....but....
Where, or where, have I asked you to address anything from a 'rules-technical' standpoint? I have addressed the exact same issues with the exact same criteria, that you have. You talk about what you can do, I talk about what you can do. You talk feats being broken/not, I talk about feats being broken/not. You talk logic, I talk logic. etc. Try and stop making things up, please.)

You say QD is weak, we show how it is useful.
You say *you* can do it, we ask if everything you can 'do' should be allowed.
You say *you* can do it, we ask for details to see if you are *really* doing it.
You say giving it away is not broken, we ask if you will give away everything that is not broken.

Each time *EACH* time, you ignore the statements, and move on to something else. *AND* complain because no one 'gets' your point, or 'addresses' your point. I have been addressing your points, and you keep choosing to ignore it. I even draw your attention to it (3 times now) and you just change to something else.

What I 'want', is for you to try, just try, and stay consistent. You keep trying to show how it is 'logical' that you make these changes. Well then, defend that logic, don't keep changing your story.

Logic 1) "If Anubis can do it, a 1st level fighter can do it" This has been addressed, you have refused to defend it.

Logic 2) "Giving it away is okay, since that will not break the game" I have addressed this, and you have ignored it ever since.

Logic 3) "Sheathing/drawing takes time and effort, giving everyone QD/QS will make things go faster." This one is new.
First, *lots* of things take time, like attacking. If we just assume that each attack hits, or each attack does the same damage, then it will speed things up. And getting rid of all spell components will speed things up. And lets get rid of feats, too much time. etc. *everything* takes time/effort, such is life. That is not a justification for getting rid of QD
Second, your method *doesn't* get rid of these issues anyway. Since you don't give away QS for free.

Logic 4) "QD is only useful at high levels"
First, so what? Then let high level people take it. Lots of feats are only good at high or low levels.
Second, you are mistaken. It can be useful at low/mid levels, maybe not for everyone, but for some, and that is what a feat is about.
Third, if QD *is* useless, then why give it away, since no one would benefit from it anyway?

First off, when on an adventure, wouldn't weapons always be at a ready-to-use position?

If all your adventures are in 'dangerous dungeons' then probably. Assuming you never get surprised when not in dungeons, or while sleeping, or searching, or whatever.

In these cases, Quick Draw is quite obviously pointless,

No, it is not obvious. It can still be useful, depending on what weapons you have out, and which ones you want out, and if you have space to move, or if you are throwing weapons, or.....

or at least not very useful given the good stuff possible can't be done until higher levels.

Again, this has been discussed, you just choose to ignore it (again), yes, it becomes more useful when you get iterative attacks. (I guess 'high level' now equals 6th) But it can also come in handy when you want to do something besides just move and attack, or TWF, or rapid shot, or throwing, or.....

tons of silly attacks of opportunity when putting stuff away,

You said that never happens, that is why QD is a 'waste', why are you changing you mind? Oh...
Logic 5) "This gets rid of 'silly' AoO" So, are you getting rid of all the other causes for AoO? How about the 'silly' ones? How do you discern the difference?,

and mages not being able to wield weapons and cast spells in the same combat.

You said this never happens, that is why QD is a waste.

My fix...

No, it is your
'change'. It cannot be a 'fix' unless it is broken, and you have shown nothing to indicate it is broken.
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