D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Garthanos]

Also solves some problems through engineering. And political intrigue. Then again conan is certainly not a dummy either but heracles is known for his cleverness until recent times. There is more to these characters than brawn.

The Greek hero definitely wasn't pure physicality even though they exceeded parameters with frequency or got drunk in order to wrestle with death and save someone mortally ill.

 

[Ratskinner]

I don't think so.

The difference between "Good With Weapons Guy" and "Superman Wannabe Guy" is mostly level.

<snip>

That's the trick it seems. Add just a soupçon of magic to a class and poof, I can do fantastic feats far beyond anything a mortal human can do.

hmm...I wonder how much of the disconnect here is that "mostly level" isn't actually how we see those archetypes in fiction. I mean, many (and arguably the most famous) of the examples trotted out are demigods (or similar). Superman doesn't get to be what he is through hard work and practice, he gets that way from his heritage. Same with Hercules and many others. Maybe a guy like Batman, Conan, or Green Arrow don't fit in the same class as a guy like Superman or Thor. And I'm not sure how you balance that "visually" by wrapping that into a race or background.

Just spitballing that idea.

 

[Garthanos]

hmm...I wonder how much of the disconnect here is that "mostly level" isn't actually how we see those archetypes in fiction. I mean, many (and arguably the most famous) of the examples trotted out are demigods (or similar).

Because high level casters in D&D ARE still often more powerful than classic demigods
For instance: In order to work a magic that had some significant effect they generally used rituals and similar. Like for instance Circe, daughter of Helios, the sun god, and of the ocean nymph Perse. basically need drugs and incantations to change humans into wolves, lions, and swine. (She spiked their punch)

 

[Tony Vargas]

I said "maximum level". 3E's ELH lifted that maximum and was, let's face it, poorly written and seldom used. As for 4E... setting aside the fact that epic destinies are not a part of the fighter class, ...go take a second look at what the Demigod actually does. Refluff it as "Very Very Tough Guy" and it could be Conan. Probably more easily than Heracles, in fact: your Strength only goes up by 2.

Up 2, to as high as 30 by the time you retire to immortality - no magic belts or books required - and, y'know Demigod is exactly what Heracles was.
As for part if the Fighter class Legendary Monarch took a Martial Class, like Fighter or Warlord, or Paladin as a preq, so a continuation of it.
That conceptual ceiling was off. And, the 4e fighter was balanced and using powers and Heroic from level 1.
The popularity of the fighter doesn't rest on it being mechanically bereft.

 

[Garthanos]

Superman doesn't get to be what he is through hard work and practice,

Classic heros of myth and legend did often grow into their skin the story of Cu Cuhlainn was him learning to do feats of extraordinary prowess. Admittedly he learned them at a rate that normal joes considered obnoxiously fast. But he was learning them from skilled normal people.

Superman doesnt normally grow so much this was not actually very true of the characters we are talking about.

 

[Ratskinner]

Because high level casters in D&D ARE still often more powerful than classic demigods
For instance: In order to work a magic that had some significant effect they generally used rituals and similar. Like for instance Circe, daughter of Helios, the sun god, and of the ocean nymph Perse. basically need drugs and incantations to change humans into wolves, lions, and swine. (She spiked their punch)

I actually don't think D&D casters are based on much of anything at all, myth-wise. I know that's the common thought, but for many reasons both gamist and narrative (which you mention) I just don't see D&D magic as being anything like mythological magic. Overall, D&D is a poor way of representing myth. If I wanted to play a d20-based version of myths, I would look to a supers ruleset first (Mutants and Masterminds comes to mind). I mean, wizards are traditionally Deus Ex Machina NPCs, not players. Magic users as just regular folk who learn mad skills is a much more modern view of things (for the most part). I think it was tucked into D&D to create gamist diversity amongst the murderhoboes, not represent something mythical.

Narratively, D&D is trying to put too much into the same bushel. As a dungeoneering game at its heart, with trappings as nods to myth and magic. It works fine (unsurprisingly). As a myth-story engine, its terrible but hides it well. I see most of these discussions as falling into that trap. It doesn't help that the designers seem to fall in and out of the trap as time has gone one.

To that end, I my growing suspicion is that the answer to these types of threads is not that fighters are too weak, but that casters are generally too broad/powerful.

 

[Ratskinner]

Classic heros of myth and legend did often grow into their skin the story of Cu Cuhlainn was him learning to do feats of extraordinary prowess. Admittedly he learned them at a rate that normal joes considered obnoxiously fast. But he was learning them from skilled normal people.

Superman doesnt normally grow so much this was not actually very true of the characters we are talking about.

A few do, yes. I think, though, that if you went around and tallied them up, you would find that Cu Cuhlain's story (if there is a singular story that matches what you say and not several...which is also unlikely) is more of an outlier (although I know its your favorite hobby horse). I would also point out that there are many for whom that growth involves assistance/training from magical/divine sources. "Superman" was just referencing the "wannabe Superman" from a previous post. There's a reason Raglan's Hero traits list includes "reputed to be the son of a god".

 

[Sacrosanct]

Put it another way.

So long as the fighter can never run faster than Usain Bolt, swim faster than Michael Phelps, shred better than Tony Hawk, hold his breath longer than a pearl diver, inspire people more than Martin Luther King without resorting to magic, a fighter will NEVER be mythic.

So long as the paradigm in D&D is that no matter what, no one can ever do anything that is beyond human without magic, then there is no way that a fighter can ever by mythic or legendary. You can talk about all the minutia you like. That's unfortunately the bottom line. A fighter will always be just a fighter.

Repeating the same falsehood over and over doesn't make it any less false. Those things aren't the only things that can make a person heroic. You've already been provided example after example of a fighter doing heroic things no real person can hope to do (not just soloing monsters), so why do you keep repeating this falsehood that a fighter can "NEVER be mythic"?

Honest question. Why do you keep repeating it?

 

[Undrave]

Heracles does a lot of weird stuff actually. For one thing prophecy. Just not much of it. Actually heracles has a grade A brain if you pay close attention and is NOT prone to rage or senseless violence. That was a curse from hera and it wore off (i would argue nondisneyfied hera is one of thebfew major greek gods who is a bigger jerk than zeus. Id side with zeus before hera 9/10 even though hes a jerk sometimes). And he does supernatural stuff not the province of the mind or muscle per se. Also solves some problems through engineering. And political intrigue. Then again conan is certainly not a dummy either but heracles is known for his cleverness until recent times. There is more to these characters than brawn. There are things that a fighter class alone does not best model.

Bold is mine...

And WHY wouldn't a Fighter class model that? It seems like a huge flaw to me.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Repeating the same falsehood over and over doesn't make it any less false. Those things aren't the only things that can make a person heroic. You've already been provided example after example of a fighter doing heroic things no real person can hope to do (not just soloing monsters), so why do you keep repeating this falsehood that a fighter can "NEVER be mythic"?

Honest question. Why do you keep repeating it?

@Hussar i second this. Its clear we are talking about he-man singing hey-ey-ey ey ey along to the nonblonds on another planet with super gravity not phelps vocalizing a the eheh heh heh stoner laugh in a hot tub while he "trains". What are you repeating for? Giant armor wearing cat companion. Not personally contracted pizza and keef fetching coffee boy/girl.