D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter: The Zouave

[Oofta]

Odd that every other class has out of combat support at first level.

WotC didn't eliminate out-of-combat spells because of backgrounds

Ummm ... okay. Because fighters don't get any proficiencies? Can't take a background or use the (admittedly optional) training rules to gain new skills? Take a feat that doubles your proficiency? Can't take a race that has supernatural abilities to accomplish something? There are no subclasses that give you special benefits to aid allies? It's the least popular class, never taken by anyone?

Oh wait, none of that is true. If the proficiencies you get from the class and background aren't enough, there are several sub-classes that give you more. It's the single most popular class on DndBeyond. What is true is that fighters don't cast spells. Except eldritch knights and arcane archers.

I don't know what things you think "every other class" has that is so magnificently overwhelming outside of combat. Because I've never seen it in a real game.

 

[bedir than]

Ummm ... okay. Because fighters don't get any proficiencies? Can't take a background or use the (admittedly optional) training rules to gain new skills? Take a feat that doubles your proficiency? Can't take a race that has supernatural abilities to accomplish something? There are no subclasses that give you special benefits to aid allies? It's the least popular class, never taken by anyone?

Oh wait, none of that is true. If the proficiencies you get from the class and background aren't enough, there are several sub-classes that give you more. It's the single most popular class on DndBeyond. What is true is that fighters don't cast spells. Except eldritch knights and arcane archers.

I don't know what things you think "every other class" has that is so magnificently overwhelming outside of combat. Because I've never seen it in a real game.

Every mention of background and feats is a non sequitur. It has nothing to do with class.

What CLASS ability is on par with Alarm, or Natural Explorer, or Expertise?
Fighters are on the low end of proficiency at first level -- Barbarian (who don't have out-of-combat feature until 2nd level), Cleric (but most Domains give another, plus spells), Paladin (who have Divine Sense), Sorcerer (spells, plus features from archetypes), Warlock (spells, patron), Wizard (spells).

Only the the Fighter and Barbarian of 2 skill classes don't have a 1st level boost to non-combat pillars.

 

[bedir than]

Odd that every other class has out of combat support at first level.

WotC didn't eliminate out-of-combat spells because of backgrounds

I was wrong. The Barbarian is like the Fighter. That's the only other one with just 2 skills.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The CLASS doesn't need to support out of combat play. That's the whole point of backgrounds in 5E.

Right, that's why all out-of-combat support is in backgrounds, not classes.

Are they going to be as good as a rogue? Without investing in feats, no.

Feats are still optional. A class that isn't viable without an optional rule might have been more helpfully presented as part of that rule.

So ASIs, then: a Fighter has one more ASI than the Rogue starting at 6th level... and taking a break at 10th, since the Rogue also gets a bonus ASI, so neck and neck until 14th. So, in the 15-level run of a typical AP, the Fighter will have one more ASI than the Rogue through 6 of them.
The Rogue will have Expertise in two skills for 15 of those levels, two more for 10, and Reliable Talent for 5.

And thats the Rogue nevermind full casting with rituals on top.

 

[Oofta]

Every mention of background and feats is a non sequitur. It has nothing to do with class.

What CLASS ability is on par with Alarm, or Natural Explorer, or Expertise?
Fighters are on the low end of proficiency at first level -- Barbarian (who don't have out-of-combat feature until 2nd level), Cleric (but most Domains give another, plus spells), Paladin (who have Divine Sense), Sorcerer (spells, plus features from archetypes), Warlock (spells, patron), Wizard (spells).

Only the the Fighter and Barbarian of 2 skill classes don't have a 1st level boost to non-combat pillars.

Fine. You win. Fighters suck, nobody ever plays them. Backgrounds have no impact on play nor are they a simple way to give flexibility to classes. The guys playing fighters in my campaigns never contribute outside of combat I've just been imagining it, and I was just deluding myself in thinking I enjoyed playing one. No fighter can ever be any good at survival, all casters take spells like Alarm, Divine Sense is incredibly useful even if you aren't facing celestials fiends or undead.

But yes. I will agree. Fighters do not get spells. Except when they do.

Have a good one.

P.S. YOU DON'T NEED TO YELL ABOUT "CLASS".

 

[bedir than]

Fine. You win. Fighters suck, nobody ever plays them. Backgrounds have no impact on play nor are they a simple way to give flexibility to classes. The guys playing fighters in my campaigns never contribute outside of combat I've just been imagining it, and I was just deluding myself in thinking I enjoyed playing one. No fighter can ever be any good at survival, all casters take spells like Alarm, Divine Sense is incredibly useful even if you aren't facing celestials fiends or undead.

But yes. I will agree. Fighters do not get spells. Except when they do.

Have a good one.

P.S. YOU DON'T NEED TO YELL ABOUT "CLASS".

I needed to yell about class, because you acted as if background addressed a class issue. You did so multiple times.

Also, I'm not trying to win. I am merely pointing out that the Fighter needs a small boost outside of the combat pillar.

That's it. Like a couple tools, or a skill, or certain minor feats -- not a lot

 

[Oofta]

I needed to yell about class, because you acted as if background addressed a class issue. You did so multiple times.

Also, I'm not trying to win. I am merely pointing out that the Fighter needs a small boost outside of the combat pillar.

That's it. Like a couple tools, or a skill, or certain minor feats -- not a lot

Then I simply disagree. Most of the things you listed in the other post are things I've never seen (Alarm, Natural Explorer) or only rarely seen (Divine Sense). Fighters aren't natural skill monkeys, that's the rogues schtick. I can think of probably 3 spells I've actually seen used out of combat at lower levels: detect magic, read magic, guidance. Others, like prestidigitation, light or thaumaturgy are primarily fluff. Some things like Leomund's Tiny Hut or Teleportation Circle are handy, but honestly? If the group didn't have them it wouldn't really matter. It would just be a slightly different story.

I don't think the fighter needs to be buffed. If you want to play a fighter skill monkey you need to work at it a bit more. Even though you dismiss backgrounds, they do help fill in concepts. Besides, how many things is one PC going to be good at? Most only have a couple of things they're actually good at that come up on a regular basis.

Besides, there's times when I want to play the crafty rogue or bend reality as a wizard. There are other times I just want to play a BDF. Or a dextrous fighter with a background that makes him a decent thief substitute. Or a charismatic fighter ... or a dozen other versions that I never seem to have time to play.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Fine. You win. Fighters suck, nobody ever plays them.

Hey, if they were like truenamers in 3.5, and were obscure and virtually never played, yeah, that inferiority wouldn't matter.
But fighters are a "trap option" baited with some of the most popular heroic tropes out there.

 

[Oofta]

Hey, if they were like truenamers in 3.5, and were obscure and virtually never played, yeah, that inferiority wouldn't matter.
But fighters are a "trap option" baited with some of the most popular heroic tropes out there.

Which is why it's the most popular class? So many suckers.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Which is why it's the most popular class?

Because for most character concepts inspired by heroic fantasy, myth/legend, and the even broader action genre of cinema, its about the only appropriate choice?
Yes.
And because it's actively promoted by the game and community as the most appropriate first class to play?
Yes.

So many suckers.

"One born every minute."

But the prefered term is "new and casual players."