Hypersmurf said:In all five cases, we have a spell whose area includes a foe, which the text of the invisibility spell describes as an attack for the purposes of the invisibility spell.
The text of the DBF spell indicates that the 'burst' occurs on detonation, so until that occurs, I can only assume that 'Area: 20 ft. radius spread' described in the Fireball spell doesnt apply. Once it does, upon detonation, the area of the spell doesn't include a foe, because he's moved.
When the DBF 'bursts', we have a spell whose area includes a foe.
We also have a definition for attacking with a spell (for the purposes of the invisibility spell), and it includes any spell whose area includes a foe.
Only if you're invisible.TYPO5478 said:The ironic thing is that it isn't a problem to cast those spells when it isn't useful, but as soon as it becomes useful, it's detrimental.
That's a whole direction of thinking that is just out-thinking itself: it's a spell. Your spell is attacking someone directly. The spell causes damage. The technicality you're introducing here does not - in my opinion - matter.TYPO5478 said:Even if the sphere touches them, they're still outside of it. Or is mere contact enough to be "included" in the effect? And if so, how do you determine whether someone on the edge of the area or effect actually contacted it or not?
...but if the summoned entity can swallow, swarm, envelop, or otherwise engulf a foe, isn't that foe contained within the effect of the summon monster spell?
TYPO5478 said:I suppose the same goes for grease, alarm, silence, antimagic field (although I'm not sure how that would even work), any of the detect spells, magic circles, a variety of walls, clouds and fogs or for nearly any other spell that might actually be useful against a creature.
What I still don't understand (besides why explosive runes, even with all the restrictions, should qualify) is how a foe could be included in the effect of flaming sphere: a 5-ft.-diameter sphere. Even if the sphere touches them, they're still outside of it. Or is mere contact enough to be "included" in the effect? And if so, how do you determine whether someone on the edge of the area or effect actually contacted it or not?
bool bCasterIsInvis = true;
/*Check each spell effect here. Mundane effects are handled separately*/
foreach(NonAlly in Game)
{
if(Monster.NeedsToMakeSavingThrow.AgainstSpellEffect(Caster) == true) bCasterIsInvis = false;
if(Monster.TakesDamage.AgainstSpellEffect(Caster) == true) bCasterIsInvis = false;
if(Monster.ResistsEffectOf.AgainstSpellEffect(Caster) == true) bCasterIsInvis = false;
if(Monster.StatusChangeApplied.AgainstSpellEffect(Caster) == true) bCasterIsInvis = false;
}
Even though it's been a long time since I coded anything, I think I followed that. However, the most significant problem I see is that you haven't excluded summon monster. Your second IF statement would definitely include damage from a summoned being (considering that the effect of the summon spell is the creature).Dracorat said:My logic RE: Invisibility is simple.
Which raises another question about summon monster: what if a summoned creature forces a foe to make a save? Are they saving against the summon spell, or the effect of the summon spell? Without the spell, the opponent wouldn't have had to make the save.Hypersmurf said:I don't consider Flaming Sphere to be a spell whose effect includes a foe. I consider it to be a spell opponents resist with saving throws.
Heh. Fair enough.evilbob said:Only if you're invisible.
I'm not trying to complicate the issue at all; the issue is complicated enough by itself. I'm simply trying to specify the nuances of everyone's respective interpretations (of which, at this point, I count four: Dracorat's, Hypersmurf's, evilbob's and mine). They're all different to one degree or another, so each is capable of yielding different results when applied to the same situation. Not to mention the fact that we will be playing out this scene sooner or later, and I want to make sure I understand the consequences of my actions before I take them.evilbob said:the point of your bringing all this up is, I believe, trying to over-complicate the issue in order to show the futility of the opposing argument.
TYPO5478 said:However, the most significant problem I see is that you haven't excluded summon monster. Your second IF statement would definitely include damage from a summoned being (considering that the effect of the summon spell is the creature).
Which raises another question about summon monster: what if a summoned creature forces a foe to make a save? Are they saving against the summon spell, or the effect of the summon spell? Without the spell, the opponent wouldn't have had to make the save.
TYPO5478 said:Which raises another question about summon monster: what if a summoned creature forces a foe to make a save? Are they saving against the summon spell, or the effect of the summon spell? Without the spell, the opponent wouldn't have had to make the save.