Flat Healing Without Using a Surge--Infinite Daily HP?

[Eldorian]

Except Cadfan's rule doesn't make sense in this case--you would save ink by just not printing these powers.

Also, I think I should really start up a new thread that specifically references Sunburst first so people don't get off on a side-tangent about credible threat, since Sunburst doesn't work off a Hit.

"It's Epic so it doesn't matter if they break out of the healing surge system" is an acceptable way to deal with it, but it seems markedly inelegant in a system that is otherwise quite elegant and consistent from 1 to 30.

... Sunburst is a level 27 prayer. If you want to spend 5 minutes healing everyone in the part 10-20 hp at epic levels, be my guest. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this was working as intended. You're not breaking out of the healing surge system. You're breaking out of the healing surge system when time out of combat doesn't matter too much (enough that you don't take an extended rest). In combat, you're still burning surges.

The lower level powers that require a hit aren't poorly worded or "ripe for abuse" as you are trying to do. Any DM worth any salt, that includes 12 year olds just starting, can tell that attacking peasants or angry gophers at upper heroic or higher for the healing is stupid, and the game doesn't work that way. Credible threat means just that. Your god won't answer petty prayers, and, if warlords have similar powers, your allies aren't inspired when they're not threatened.

These powers in question are perfectly fine powers.

I can't believe I'm arguing with you. Man I hate the internets sometimes.

 

[Rystil Arden]

... Sunburst is a level 27 prayer. If you want to spend 5 minutes healing everyone in the part 10-20 hp at epic levels, be my guest. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this was working as intended. You're not breaking out of the healing surge system. You're breaking out of the healing surge system when time out of combat doesn't matter too much (enough that you don't take an extended rest). In combat, you're still burning surges.

The lower level powers that require a hit aren't poorly worded or "ripe for abuse" as you are trying to do. Any DM worth any salt, that includes 12 year olds just starting, can tell that attacking peasants or angry gophers at upper heroic or higher for the healing is stupid, and the game doesn't work that way. Credible threat means just that. Your god won't answer petty prayers, and, if warlords have similar powers, your allies aren't inspired when they're not threatened.

These powers in question are perfectly fine powers.

I can't believe I'm arguing with you. Man I hate the internets sometimes.

Just because it is high level doesn't mean it should break out of the daily healing limit. If you're only healing 10 HP off Sunburst, you really shouldn't have chosen that power. Almost any Cleric who has Sunburst will be healing over 20 HP (23 or 24 is probably about average). And remember, HP are more flat in 4e. A level 27 character probably has around 150 HP. That's a substantial percentage (more than half a healing surge), and you heal it to every PC. In between battles, you're assumed to usually have time to rest and recover your powers. In fact, basically, the way you heal up between fights is essentially to wait and use your innate ability to activate your own surges (the same ability that manifests in Second Wind once per encounter). Sunburst heals about as quickly as that. If you didn't have time to Sunburst, you may not have had time to recover the party's encounter abilities at all.

Also, at the risk of dragging this into the 'credible threat' zone (where it seems to go no matter my desire), the peasant/gopher is a strawman that no one has suggested. But let's focus on Sunburst if we may.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

However, I think you're absolutely right. These powers are an exception, and they should be errataed or eliminated. It's a failing to remain consistent with an elegant and successful portion of the 4e ruleset. It is not a failure of 4e, just these specific exceptions.

The thing is, that in most games no one will ever even notice this problem.

Their DM will say "Alright, you drop the last Orc. You search through their stuff and collect all of your dropped equipment and take a short rest in the process. You can spend as many healing surges as you want in order to heal yourselves." And everyone will spend a couple of healing surges and move down the path to try to get to the chieftain before he summons the demon. Someone might suggest healing everyone and then taking another short rest. It will likely be shot down due to time constraints or that spending a couple of healing surges is just easier and they'll move on.

I, personally, would have liked to have seen some powers restricted to within a combat only in order to completely eliminate this problem. But I have a feeling that "This power can only be used while in combat" would be the line that a lot of people wouldn't be willing to cross in terms of immersion.

 

[WayneLigon]

Honestly, I think Sunburst is a poor example as well. It's an attack power and has a target listed; I'd say that if there were no enemies, then you couldn't use the power to just heal yourself and allies in the burst. Similarly, if you're not in an encounter, you can't just spam the thing every 5 minutes just because encounter powers recharge at the 5 minute mark; you can't use it until you have an actual encounter.

I think that sort of thing deserves it's own thread.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The thing is, that in most games no one will ever even notice this problem.

Their DM will say "Alright, you drop the last Orc. You search through their stuff and collect all of your dropped equipment and take a short rest in the process. You can spend as many healing surges as you want in order to heal yourselves." And everyone will spend a couple of healing surges and move down the path to try to get to the chieftain before he summons the demon. Someone might suggest healing everyone and then taking another short rest. It will likely be shot down due to time constraints or that spending a couple of healing surges is just easier and they'll move on.

I, personally, would have liked to have seen some powers restricted to within a combat only in order to completely eliminate this problem. But I have a feeling that "This power can only be used while in combat" would be the line that a lot of people wouldn't be willing to cross in terms of immersion.

It's a good thought and quite a reasonable sentiment, but in addition to the immersion thing, 'in combat' would have probably lead to the same 'credible threat' issue (frex, most people in this thread suggest that the last enemy is still a credible threat, so you could just leave a minion alive in order to 'stay in combat' or something silly).

Really, the best and easiest way to deal with this would have probably been to make all non-surge-based healing daily or limited daily.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Honestly, I think Sunburst is a poor example as well. It's an attack power and has a target listed; I'd say that if there were no enemies, then you couldn't use the power to just heal yourself and allies in the burst. Similarly, if you're not in an encounter, you can't just spam the thing every 5 minutes just because encounter powers recharge at the 5 minute mark; you can't use it until you have an actual encounter.

I think that sort of thing deserves it's own thread.

It's an Area though, and it heals as an effect, without needing any attack to be made.

Let's put it this way--the Cleric is in battle with a high level solo Lurker, and she's pretty sure the Lurker is hiding nearby. She uses Sunburst, encompassing all her allies (who were injured by the Lurker). Consider the following possibilities--

A) The Cleric is wrong and the Lurker is not in the area. Would you not be able to use it somehow because there aren't any target enemies in the area? Would you lose the Effect? Would you know in advance?

B) The Lurker was there, but has an Immediate Reaction to get the hell out of dodge and uses it, thus not being there when the effect actually resolves. Same as above.

C) The Lurker is there, but the PC doesn't know it.

I'm sure there are other possibilities. The rules of the power don't say that it wouldn't work, and with the exception-based design, it seems very likely that it would.

 

[Eldorian]

Just because it is high level doesn't mean it should break out of the daily healing limit. If you're only healing 10 HP off Sunburst, you really shouldn't have chosen that power. Almost any Cleric who has Sunburst will be healing over 20 HP (23 or 24 is probably about average). And remember, HP are more flat in 4e. A level 27 character probably has around 150 HP. That's a substantial percentage (more than half a healing surge), and you heal it to every PC. In between battles, you're assumed to usually have time to rest and recover your powers. In fact, basically, the way you heal up between fights is essentially to wait and use your innate ability to activate your own surges (the same ability that manifests in Second Wind once per encounter). Sunburst heals about as quickly as that. If you didn't have time to Sunburst, you may not have had time to recover the party's encounter abilities at all.

You can die and jump back on your feet at epic levels. A Demigod can, once per day, recover all his HP, and, once per day, recover half his hp if he goes down. Both are divorced from surges. Why should somewhat slow but infinite healing be stupid? Also, wtf, +13 or +14 Cha modifier? That's not even possible. Base 20, +8 from leveling, total max mod is 9. Much more likely is around 16 healing. Man, no wonder your panties are in a twist, you can't count! Level 27 defenders have around 185ish hp. It'd take about half an hour to heal him from bloodied using reasonable guesses for how much Sunburst heals with a typical caster type cleric with +6 cha mod.

Also, at the risk of dragging this into the 'credible threat' zone (where it seems to go no matter my desire), the peasant/gopher is a strawman that no one has suggested. But let's focus on Sunburst if we may.

If you're going to use formal fallacies, make sure they actually apply. The bag o rats trick was brought up several times, as was a peasant with a sword you threw him.

 

[Festivus]

If a certain monster is a significant threat, then it's a significant threat, yes? Nothing stops you from KOing the same monster (particularly a minion) that is actually a significant threat many times. Having to make the judgment call is annoying, and seriously problematic for beginner GMs, which should be something 4e aims to avoid, since it is aimed at expanding the GM base to just such GMs.

Where do you draw the line? What about a monster that the party Wizard has put to sleep with a Sleep effect. And it's the last monster in an expected planned encounter. Can the Paladin finish it off and heal her allies? Okay, what if the party Wizard is an Orb Wizard who has put the monster to sleep for over 50 rounds. Can the Paladin do it twice? If not, what if it's a really dangerous monster like an elite? Would stunned instead of asleep make it okay?

It's just a pain. I know how I would rule (very very strictly and disallow the healing in almost any case), but that doesn't mean a reasonable GM might not reasonably differ. And, especially a beginner GM, they might get into a rough corner.

So, it's ok for a paladin to use waterboarding?

Seems like torture to me anyhow and I wouldn't allow it beyond the first use.

 

[Nail]

... But let's focus on Sunburst if we may.

Agreed. Let's stick with powers like Sunburst, that don't depend on striking anything.


....and Sunburst, on first reading....... It....well... => it sucks. I want Healing Surges to be important all the way to 30th level. But now, at 27th level (with a cleric), they're completely irrelevant outside of combat.

So the real question is: "Did the designers intend healing surges to be unimportant near the end of the Epic Tier?" Or, if talking about designer intent gets your hackles up, try "If healing surges become unimportant in Epic level play, does that ruin your particular game?"

 

[Rystil Arden]

You can die and jump back on your feet at epic levels. A Demigod can, once per day, recover all his HP, and, once per day, recover half his hp if he goes down. Both are divorced from surges.

Those are both daily. Which is fine.

Also, wtf, +13 or +14 Cha modifier? That's not even possible. Base 20, +8 from leveling, total max mod is 9. Much more likely is around 16 healing. Man, no wonder your panties are in a twist, you can't count! Level 27 defenders have around 185ish hp. It'd take about half an hour to heal him from bloodied using reasonable guesses for how much Sunburst heals with a typical caster type cleric with +6 cha mod.

You really shouldn't be so nasty in your posts, calling people stupid and telling them they can't count, unless you're sure that you're correct. In your case, you are the one who is wrong. You forgot the Healer's Lore ability. Would you like to apologise?

If you're going to use formal fallacies, make sure they actually apply. The bag o rats trick was brought up several times, as was a peasant with a sword you threw him.

So it's not a strawman because...other people who were arguing for the same position as you already used that strawman? Huh? Did I try to suggest gibbing peasants? Did anyone else who wasn't using it as a strawman or just referring to it off-hand as something not in 4e?