Flavor Mish-mash and favored classes (what 4e got wrong)

[Remathilis]

After playing 4e for a while, I must now confess there is something that bugs me to no end.

Each race (with the exception of human) gets +2 to two ability scores. The nature of 4e's 22 point buy system (and the eventual "math problems") make having high scores in your classes primary (and secondary) almost a necessity. This has lead to some REALLY weird combination's that strike me as not what the creators actually intended...

* Tieflings (Int, Cha) make good warlocks; FEY warlocks. The make poor Infernal (Con) despite being, ya know, DEVIL-TOUCHED!
* Equally odd, the main race of the Feywild (eladrin, dex/int) make poor feylocks. Luckily, gnomes (int/cha) do.
* In fact, the only race that makes a good Infernal? Githyanki. They make awesome staff-wizards too.
* Interested in a Starlock? Half-elf (con/cha) is your only choice.
* Actually, how does an elf (dex/wis) and a human (any 1) blend together to make a con/cha half-elf? You'd think they'd take SOMETHING from their elven parent...
* Half-orcs at least get str from their orcish parent (str/con). Where the dex comes from is another story.
* There are 4 races that have a wild/primal feel to them (goliath, elf, shifter, half-orc). None of them make good shaman.
* In fact, the proud metalworking warriors (dwarves, Con/Wis) and the reincarnating former angel-servants of the gods (devas, Int/Wis) make the best shamans.
* On further thought, dwarves make poor martial PCs in general. They are ok hammer/axe fighters (as long as you don't mind an average str) but they are miserable warlords (Str/Int/Cha) and not that great at rogues or rangers. They're also not that good at being paladins (Str/Wis/Cha) either. Actually, the kinda suck at ALL the defenders...
* Kobolds (Con/Dex) now make terrible sorcerers, especially poor draconic sorcerers. Meepo fans, weep with me.
* Similarly, drow now make poor wizards AND clerics. So much for them drow priestesses.
* Swordmages are the blending of arcane and martial prowess. Who blends these well? Not elves (despite being, ya know, F/M in Basic) and eladrin only make passable ones. Genasi and Githyanki get the nod again (but at least those make sense).
* The distrusted, disliked, and occasionally hated tieflings, ironically, make great cunning bards. Elves however, do not make good bards at all. Neither do Eladrin. I guess gnomes made all that great elven music and poetry...
* Hobgoblins, on the other hand, make GREAT valorous bards. They do not, though, make great warlords, though they are passable as inspiring ones.
* And who would have though the savage longtooth shifters make great split-clerics?
* by that logic, who called drow, halflings, and goblins as great chaos sorcerers?
* Who makes great druids? Luckily, elves do. Predator, not guardian druids however. Guardian druids are another place where dwarves rule. As a side note, other great predators: razorclaw (natch), githzerai (wha?) and bladelings (WHA?!?!)
* Poor Gnolls and Kobolds, they actually have NO classes where Dex/Con is important yet.
* Looking for a good warden? Well, Wildbloods got one choice (longtooth shifter), but Earthbloods have plenty: Goliath (good), Minotaur (ok), Orc (ok), and Warforged (uh, because they're made of metal, right?)

Now, I realize there are going to be some illogical consequences of only having 6 ability scores divided up by 2s (for races) and 3s (be class) but some just seem to be head-scratchers...

Anyone got any more? Want to debate one of mine? Go for it!

 

[mach1.9pants]

If you are a min/maxer then yep. But you don't have to have your 2 scores at 18 or 20 at first level then press on. Those so called math fixing feats, errmmm, fix that.

But yes not how I would have done many of the abilities for race and class.

 

[Drowbane]

I suppose the 4e design team either wasn't thinking, or decided that flavor doesn't need optimization (Dwarf Fighter has huge flavor, but dwarf isn't the strongest fighter race?).

Either way, thanks for the long hearty laugh. I'm not sure why your post was so damn funny... but I'm still somewhat out of breath.

edit: ya know, 3e wasn't perfect in this regard either. Elves have all this history of being supposedly awesome wizards... only a fool (read: non-optimizer ) would make an Elven Wizard in 3e. -2 Con is bad enough when you don't have a d4 HD.

 

[Obryn]

If you expect that you must start with 18's in both your Primary and Secondary stats, then sure. If you figure having a 16 in one of them is fine, you're okay without. Granted, I like having an 18 in a primary stat, but a character isn't hosed with a 16.

By your reasoning, Humans don't make good anythings, and I haven't found that to be the case.

There are also feats which help make some of the archetypal class/race combinations more potent (or equally potent) as characters with min-maxed stat bonuses. Hellfire Blood and Dwarven Weapon Training, for two.

-O

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Ehh, doesn't bother me at all, I think the Racial Ability Scores should make sense for the race and that is it. Same with Ability Score bonuses for Classes it should match the class. If it causes weird combos then meh, who cares most likely the race will still tend toward what fits its culture, since that is what it knows.

 

[Stalker0]

I also have noticed that WOTC has made a lot of feats to try and bump the archetypal combos.

The feat gives dwarves bonus damage with axes and hammers is awesome, even without their strength.

Eladrin are starting to get a few wizardy feats, desperately needed imo.

I think there is still work to be done in this department, but its not all about the ability scores.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

If you are a min/maxer then yep. But you don't have to have your 2 scores at 18 or 20 at first level then press on. Those so called math fixing feats, errmmm, fix that.

But yes not how I would have done many of the abilities for race and class.

Ah, but you don't have to be maxed. But doesn't it make sense that a race which is supposed to be good at something has some racial proclivity toward that?

I mean, I'm fairly smart, but really not that strong. I didn't go into construction, I went into psychology.

You'd think that most races would have ability scores that at least boosted the sort of things that they were known for.

 

[doctorhook]

A lot of your criticisms are valid, and a lot of them aren't. (There's a lot of them, period.) A few of your criticisms seem to have missed the point altogether, like the criticisms of Half-Elf and Half-Orc ability bonuses. Other disagreements:

• Tieflings aren't universally distrusted or disliked, AFAIK.
• Dwarves can be quite in-tune with the natural world, it's just one of stone and earth rather than leaves and bunny rabbits.
• Dwarves, in fact, tend to make amazing Martial characters, thanks to their racial options and their minor action SW.
• "Primal feel" is pretty subjective.
• Eladrins dig Wizardry and most other Arcana, so they can be forgiven for not being on about Warlock-ery.
• Those "elves" which made such good Fighter/Mages in days past, they're called Eladrin now.
• What's wrong with Drow, Halfling, or Goblin Sorcerers?
• Why shouldn't Hobgoblins make good Bards?
• Why does being "savage", or even just being a Shifter mean that one couldn't be a good Cleric? A few of the gods like that.

OTOH, some of your points are good ones:

• Drow should make better Clerics and Wizards.
• Kobolds should make good Sorcerers, especially Dragon Sorcerers.
• Hobgoblins ought to succeed as Warlords at least as often as they do as Bards.
• Tiefling probably should have made better Infernal Warlocks.

I think it's especially worth noting that you seem to heavily overstate the importance of racial stat bonuses, which aren't as big a deal as some will have you believe. This failure of your argument is especially obvious where you consider Dwarves not to make good Defenders.

Lastly, you assume that PCs represent the majority. In fact, perhaps most Tiefling Warlocks do follow the Infernal path, in spite of their bonuses.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Hereticus]

Flavor Mish-mash and favored classes (what 4e got wrong)

Anyone got any more? Want to debate one of mine? Go for it!

One way to fix this... give each race three possible stats to add the +2 bonus to, but only two get the bonus.

 

[Ariosto]

Elves have all this history of being supposedly awesome wizards.

If not in the past nine years of 3E, then where is this history? Certainly not in the preceding quarter century, in which they had level limits!