Flavor Mish-mash and favored classes (what 4e got wrong)

[Halivar]

In my opinion, of all the favored-class-support goodies each race gets, the +2 stat adjust is the least. Feat and racial power support are more powerful in the long run. It's for this reason that, regardless of what you may think the dwarves' stat adjusts may indicate, they make the best defenders.

Don't just look at the stat adjusts. Racial feats and powers make a big difference, too.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

But given that mechanically, Wizardry is about "book learning" (not "talent"- that shows up in the Sorcerer of later editions)

"Book learning" still requires talent though. My wife could study advanced mathematics for the rest of her life and she just won't get it. I could see the same thing occurring with magic. You have an internal potential to learn it and nothing you do can get you past the point you have the talent for. That said, I never liked level limits either.

The talent possessed by a sorcerer is a "natural talent" allowing him to advance in magic without formally studying it.

 

[wedgeski]

OTOH to socialize with other humans (players) as if I were a different creature, while a human being passes on relevant information (DM) is something really impossible IMO.

Interesting perspective Xechnao, but I don't understand how roleplaying suddenly slams into an impasse when it comes to playing a different race? Or have I misunderstood you?

(I must also take exception to your example here. I don't sit at the table and socialise with my *players* as if I was the sadistic barbarian overlord of the Bloodreaver's slave pits... I socalise with their *characters*... and by socialise I mean cackle with glee as I smash their heads in...)

We all understand (I would think) that every bit of imagining we ever do is just an extension of our own little bubble of experience, from the mundane (I wonder what it would be like to be eating an ice-cream out in the sun right now?) to the fantastic (I wonder what it would be like to hold terrible dominion over a world subjugated to the whim of my magic?). Some dreams are less interesting than others, probably, but all of them can teach us something.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Well my-life-with-master (an indie game) or even white wolf games where dramatics are more focused and established make more sense to me than following the adventuring career of an elf as an adventurer-elf. In fact while D&D wants to provide some rules and fluff for this it really can not play like this: people play and follow the adventuring career of an elf as an adventurer, not as an elf. This means that "elf" is a trait of their "adventurer" identity, not the other way around.

That specifically a problem with playing a creature that doesn't differ dramatically from a human, not of the playstyle. Ask yourself if the experience would be different if you replaced "elf" with "wolf" or "dragon".

I agree D&D doesn't offer what I consider a very compelling reason for having non-human PC races when those PC races are just variations of "human". That's what I consider "monsters as races" for.

 

[xechnao]

"Book learning" still requires talent though. My wife could study advanced mathematics for the rest of her life and she just won't get it.

There is not such a thing really. What it takes is just the necessary skills to gain access to "databases" : you need to be literate for example to read books but decoding the information in these "databases" should not be difficult. If it happens to be then you happen to miss some references the physical database you have access to lacks - and this is not your inherent problem: the problem is rather with the "database".

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

There is not such a thing really. What it takes is just the necessary skills to gain access to "databases" : you need to be literate for example to read books but decoding the information in these "databases" should not be difficult. If it happens to be then you happen to miss some references the physical database you have access to lacks - and this is not your inherent problem: the problem is rather with the "database".

I disagree. My wife is literate. She has access to the information. But when you try to teach her about the concept of say imaginary numbers she does not understand. With your premise all children coming out of our schools should be fully "fluent" in calculus because that database of information is readily available in most, if not all, public high schools. And they definately are not. The same thing that limits students in the real world from being masters of math could limit students in a fantasy world from mastering magic.

 

[Puggins]

Just because some race-class combos aren't optimal doesn't mean that the rules don't match the fluff.

Drow Priests have so much power influence not because they have great stat bonuses- they're awesome because Lloth favors them. Who cares about an extra +2 wis? Come over here and have a nice talk with these half-dozen Yochlol handmaidens about how important that +2 wis really is.

Just because Tieflings pretty much invented the infernal pact doesn't make them the best at it. Why should it? They got some power from Baator, they went on an invasion spree and the Dragonborn handed them their backsides. Nothing mentioning that they are the best infernal warlocks exists in the fluff.

Elves in 1e/2e/3e? They lived forever and were the first civilized race. Of course they'd be the best wizards back then. Now people have caught up and thrown them to the side. 4e doesn't have this particular notion, by the way- the Eladrin make excellent wizards.

 

[xechnao]

That specifically a problem with playing a creature that doesn't differ dramatically from a human, not of the playstyle. Ask yourself if the experience would be different if you replaced "elf" with "wolf" or "dragon".

I agree D&D doesn't offer what I consider a very compelling reason for having non-human PC races when those PC races are just variations of "human". That's what I consider "monsters as races" for.

Or "gelatinous cube" or even some kind of "plant". And I think D&D elves are supposed to be dramatically different from humans in fluff-at least Tolkien elves are.

Anyway, I believe the appeal to play non-humans for D&D players has a lot more to do with powers regarding the adventurer life-style than anything else.

 

[xechnao]

I disagree. My wife is literate. She has access to the information. But when you try to teach her about the concept of say imaginary numbers she does not understand. With your premise all children coming out of our schools should be fully "fluent" in calculus because that database of information is readily available in most, if not all, public high schools. And they definately are not. The same thing that limits students in the real world from being masters of math could limit students in a fantasy world from mastering magic.

The time your wife or children need to learn is always a function of the variable that measures their needs and the structure of the database to satisfy them as directly as possible. For each individual there is one ideal structure, and it is different for anyone else, but generally education wants to cater to most people at a certain level of acceptance. For some people though the available structure may not be suitable enough to worth their time: this means that they have better things to do. There definitely exists a different structure than the one available at the moment that they would follow and learn whatever that could be.

In a world filled with magic and psychics like D&D I believe communication would be much more advanced than what we are accustomed with our reality. This means that learning could be much more easy than it is for us.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Or "gelatinous cube" or even some kind of "plant". And I think D&D elves are supposed to be dramatically different from humans in fluff-at least Tolkien elves are.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Anyway, I believe the appeal to play non-humans for D&D players has a lot more to do with powers regarding the adventurer life-style than anything else.

That being the draw for some people does not make non-humans as PC races an invalid roleplaying consideration for others.